r^
-^
t
cM
0 _0^ML.^}^6 cr.
Given By
U. S. SUPT. OF DOCUMENTS
^
I
\5
HEA^GSjlEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGEIN THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
, , HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTIETH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
Public Law 601
(Section 121, Subsection Q (2) )
;'ULY 31 ; AUGUST 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18,
20. 24, 25, 26, 27, 30 ; SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1948
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
1 1
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTIETH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
Public Law 601
(Section 121, Subsection Q (2))
JULY 31 ; AUGUST 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18,
20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30; SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1948
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
80408 WASHINGTON : 1948
OCT 221948
s?;?
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia
JOHN Mcdowell, Pennsylvania JOHN E. RANKIN, Mississippi
RICHARD M. NIXON, California J. HARDIN PETERSON, Florida
RICHARD B. VAIL, Illinois F. EDWARD HUBERT, Louisiana
Robert B. Stripling, Chief Investigator
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
NOTE. — These hearings begin with page 501, in accordance with the system of consecutive
numbering adopted by the committee during the second session. Eightieth Congress. Page Nos.
1-500 are contained in Hearings on Proposed Legislation to Curb or Control the Communist
Party of the United States.
II
CONTENTS
July 31, 1948 : ^^^^
Testimouy of Elizabeth Terrill Bentley 503
August 3, 1948 :
Testimony of David Whittaker Chambers 563
August 4, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster 5ST
Elizabeth T. Bentley 604
Louis J. Russell 612
August 5, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Hon.'Fred E. Busbey 625
Alger Hiss 642
August 7, 1948 :
Testimony of David Whittaker Chambers 661
August 9, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Alexander Koral 674
Victor Perlo 677
p:iizabeth T. Bentley 687
"Victor Perlo (resumed) 693
Gilda de Fi'ank Burke 701
Alexander Koral (resumed) 704
Louis J. Russell 711
August 10, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Duncan Chaplin Lee 715
Elizabeth T. Bentley 725
Duncan Chaplin Lee (resumed) 733
William Ludwig Ullmann 761
Robert T. Miller 778
August 11. 1948:
Testimony of — •
Henry H. Collins 8r;2
Elizabeth T. Bentley 810
August 12, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Charles Kramer 818
Abraham George Silverman 835
August 13, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Lauchlln Currie ." 851
——Harry Dexter White 877
Bela Gold 906
Sonia Gold 912
Frank Coe 915
Donald Hiss 928
August 16, 1948 :
Testimony of Alfter Hiss 9?15
August 17. 1948:
Testimony of Alger Hiss (Whittaker Chambers) 975
August IS, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Nelson Frank 1003
Isaac Don Levine 1005
Mrs. Alger Hiss 1011
111
IV CONTENTS
August 20, 1948 :
Testimony of — Page
John J. Abt 1015
Lee Pressman 1022
Nathan Witt 10^>8
August 24, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Louis Budenz 1035
Martha Pope 1013
Joseph Cherner 1052
Samuel A. Mensh 1060
Henry J. Gertler 1063
W. Marvin Smith 1071
August 25, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Alger Hiss 1076
Whittaker Chambers 1078
Louis J. Russell 1111
Alger Hiss (resumed) 1115
Alger Hiss (resumed) 1118
WJ'ittaker Chambers (resumed) 1176
August 26, 1948 :
Testimony of William Rosen 1207
August 27, 1948 :
Testimonv of —
Leon Cherner 1223
Henry Cherner 1227
Flovd Rhoda Brewer 1229
Samuel Bialek 1232
Robert Bialek 1240
Whittaker Chambers 1255
August 30, 1948:
Testimony of —
Alexander Stevens (real name Goldberger; also known as
J. Peters) 1267
Whittaker Chambers 1271
Alexander Stevens (real name Goldberger; also known as
J. Peters) (resumed) 1271
Whittaker Chambers (resumed) 1278
Adolf A. Berle, Jr 1291
September 8, 1948 :
Testimony of — ■
Mrs. Addie Rosen 1301
Louis Rosenberg ^^^"l
Irvin Augustus Farrell 1316
Henrv Cherner 1319
September 9, 1948 :
Testimony of —
William Rosen 1329
Maurice Louis Braverman 1342
Index 1363
HEAEINGS RECTAEDmrT COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SATURDAY, JULY 31, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met. pursuant to call, at 10 : J:5 a. m., in the commit-
tee room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Hon. J. Parnell
Thomas (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman). Richard ]M. Xixon, John McDowell, Karl E. Mundt, John
E. Rankin. J. Hardin Peterson, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis Russell. William A^Hieeler, Donald T. Appell, and Robert Gaston,
investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director of research ; and A. S. Poore,
editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mr. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Xixon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Peterson, Mr. Hebert, and Mr.
Thomas, and a quorum is present.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Miss Eliza-
beth T. Bentley.
Miss Bentley, will you stand and be sworn?
The Chairman. Miss Bentley, please stand and raise your right
hand.
Do 3'ou solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God (
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, before you start asking questions,
the Chair would like to make a short statement.
Over a year ago this committee started to investigate espionage in
the Government. We have had many witnesses in executive session, all
of whom testified on this subject.
The testimony received by us confirms in great detail the conclusions
drawn by your investigative staff, and confirms the fact that there is a
tremendous need for such an investigation and exposure and a convic-
tion in many cases in this country.
We regret that the matter has not been prosecuted long before this.
We believe that the matter should be prosecuted without further delay,
and the committee recommends that a special grand jury be convened
in Washington, D. C.. in order to give special attention to the matter
of espionage in the Government, and to bring the matter to an early
conclusion.
501
502 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. Let me say at this point that this committee exposed
years ago those Communists who have been indicted in New York and
showed by their own testimony that they were members of the Com-
munist Party, which was dominated by the Communist International,
and dedicated to the overthrow of this Government,
That has been known to President Truman and Governor Dewey of
New York all this time. It is about time that they got behind this
committee and helped to clean this proposition up and drive these rats
from the Federal, the State, and the municipal pay rolls.
So I agree with the chairman that these prosecutions should be
speeded up as much as possible in order that we may weed out those
enemies within our gates here and in New York and everywhere else
who are plotting constantly for the overthrow of this Government.
That includes the members of the New York council as William Z.
Foster, and everyone else who has joined in this international move-
ment to wreck this Government, I think the grand jury should be
convened at once.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to have included in the record this state-
ment: That the evidence which is before the grand jury in New
York and the recent disclosures it has made and findings being made
oil the other side of the Capitol in connection with espionage in Gov-
ernment and the sale of war materials to Kussia, and tlie information
we are going to get this morning indicate that the provision of the
so-called Mundt-Nixon bill, reported unanimously by this committee,
passed by the House by 319 to 56 and now before the Senate, may have
to be revised in the nature of strengthening those provisions instead
of weakening them in order to make them fully effective.
It is entirely jiossible that the Eighty-first Congress will pass a
version of this bill which is much more stringent and which is
strengthened considerably even over that portion which has already
passed the House, and that some of the "bleeding hearts" of the coun-
try refer to as having been too drastic a measure.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, do I understand from your opening
statement that you will use this testimony today as the basis of a
formal presentation to the United States attorney in the District of
Columbia to request him to convene a special grand jury?
The Chairman. That is correct. This testimony today and other
testimony we have received from other witnesses.
Mr. Hebert. Coming from this committee the United States attorney
will be formally requested to convene a special grand jury to investi-
gate the matter of communism in the Government.
The Chairman. That is correct. Does any other member have any-
thing they would like to say?
Mr. MuNDT. I think in connection with that request, Mr. Chairman,
we should also request the Attorney General to consummate these
hearings being lielcl in New York and have the proper indictments at
this time, because there is a verv obvious effort to delay and slow
down the findings of that New York case until after November.
The Chairman. I tliink, Mr. Mundt, that is one of the main rea-
sons— I don't say after November — but one of the main reasons why
we want a new grand jury convened in the District of Columbia is
because nothing has been handed down by the grand jury up in New
York.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 503
«
Mr. Hebert. You don't mean a grand jury, but you mean a special
blue-ribbon grand jury.
The Chairman. Special blue-ribbon grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. That will devote its efforts entirely to this matter.
Tlie Chairman. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, in that connection let me make this
inquiry. The gentleman from Louisiana says investigate the Com-
munists connected with the Federal Government. Some of these Com-
munists that have been indicted are connected with the State govern-
ments, or the city government in New York, and if they are on any
pay roll of the Federal Government, State government, or city govern-
ment, or county government and plotting the overthrow of this Gov-
ernment, they ought to be investigated by this grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. Of course, that statement is accepted because the Dis-
trict of Columbia is a Federal Government.
The Chairman. Well, gentlemen, we have a witness here and we had
better start.
Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH TERRILL BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you are here in response to a subpena
which was served upon you on July 23 in the St. George Hotel by Mr.
Donald T. Appell ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. To appear before the committee last Wednesday ; is
that correct ?
Miss Bentley. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Stripling. At your request
The Chairman (interposing). The Chair would like to say that we
are going to finish this at this session if we have to stay here all day
and all night and all day tomorrow. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. At your request the subpena was continued until
today; is that correct?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. You are here before the committee in response to
that subpena ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; Elizabeth Terrill Bentley.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat is your present address ?
Miss Bentley. My present address is the Hotel St. George in
Brooklyn.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Miss Bentley. I was born in New Milford, Conn., 1908.
Mr. Stripling. Can you give the committee a resume of your educa-
tional and occupational background?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Don't go into too much detail.
Miss Bentley. I graduated from high school and then from Vassar
College. I have an A. B. from Vassar College.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat year did you graduate from Vassar?
504 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. 1930. I have a master's from Columbia University
in 1935. I had a year's study at the University of Florence in Italy,
and a sunnner's study at the University of Perugia in Italy. I think
that completes the educational qualifications.
I taught 2 years in the Foxcroft School in Middleburg, Va.
Positions which I held in the business world were secretary in
import-export firms, publicity firms, translating. I was vice president
of United States Service and Shipping for 6 years. For the last year
I was secretary in an import house.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been out of the United States?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I have been out of the United States.
Mr. Stripling. What countries did you travel to ?
Miss Bentley. I have been in England, Belgium, France, Switzer-
land, Germany, Austria, Italy, one day in Algiers.
Mr. Stripling. When did you travel in Europe?
Miss Bentley. The summer after I graduated from Vassar I went
on a guided musical tour. That was the one that took me to most of
the countries. Then in 1931, 1 think it was, I studied in Perugia. In
the year 1933-34 I was in Florence.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, were you ever a member of the Com-
munist Party of the United States ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Stripling. When did you join?
Miss Bentley. March 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Who recruited you into the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. The two people who signed my membership card
were Mrs. Lee Fuhr and Dr. James P. Mendenhall.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please spell Mrs. Fuhr's name?
Miss Bentley. F-u-h-r.
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify Mrs. Fuhr?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you do so?
Miss Bentley. I don't know where she is just now, but she was a
nurse and, as I understand it, the first American nurse who went to
Spain during the Spanish civil war. I have lost track of her for many
years and don't know exactly where she is now.
Mr. Stripling. Could you identify Dr. James Mendenhall ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. At that time he was a professor in the Lincoln
School, which is a part of Teachers College, Columbia. Since then I
believe he went into the OPA, but I have also lost track of him
recently.
Mr. Stripling. Would you tell the committee the circumstances
under which you were recruited into the party?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I had come back from a year in Italy quite
upset about Fascist conditions there. On my return I met a number
of Communists of whom those two are a part, and they got me into
the American League Against War and Fascism, which was interested
in my impressions of Italy.
After that they gradually got me into the Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. Were you active in the Communist Party or were
you a rather passive member?
Miss Bentley. I would say just about medium; not too active,
just an average run-of-the-mill member.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 505
Mr. Stripling. Did your activity increase at any particular period?
Miss Bentley. Yes; but not open party activities, if that is what
you mean.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, are you acquainted with an individual
or were j^ou acquainted with an individual named Jacob Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I was.
Mr. Stripling. AVhen did you first meet Jacob Golos ?
Miss Bentley. In October 1938.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give us the circumstances under which
you met him, please?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I think about 3 or 4 months before I met
him I had, through Columbia University, obtained a position with
the Italian Library of Information, which I had discovered to be a part
of the Italian Government Propaganda Ministry. I had discovered
they were circulating Fascist propaganda, and I had gone to Com-
munist Party headquarters and requested someone who could use this
information to be distributed to anti-Fascist organizations for their
use.
I was then introduced to Mr. Jacob Golos.
]Mr. Stripling. At that time what was Mr. Golos' occupation?
Miss Bentley. I didn't know until a year after I met him, but
actually he was at that time and up until his death, president of World
Tourists, Inc.
Mr. Stripling. Will you describe briefly the type of organization
World Tourists was ? What did it do ?
Miss Bentley. My understanding is it was set up in 1927 with funds
supplied by the Communist Party as a travel agency, and that Mr.
Golos came into the organization in the early thirties, when it was
financially on the rocks, took it over, made its prime purpose sending
individuals and tourists to Russia, and made quite a bit of money dur-
ing those boom travel years.
Then in tlie late thirties, when travel fell off, they got a concession
from the American office of Intourist, which is the Soviet agency in
charge of parcels and packages going to the U. S. S. R., and their main
business became sending packages to individuals in Russia.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with World Tourists, Miss Bentley,
did you ever know a person by the name of Gerhart Eisler ? Did you
ever meet him?
Miss Bentley. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know of anyone by the name of Samuel
Liptzen ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. I mention that, Mr. Chairman, because in the hear-
ing before this committee on Gerhert Eisler it was brought out that
Mr. Eisler traveled to the Soviet Union under a passport in the name
of Samuel Liptzen. He carried with him a letter signed by Jacob
Golos which he presented to a Soviet agent in Paris, which arranged
for him to go to the Soviet L^nion. The passport which he obtained
under the name of Samuel Liptzen did not indicate that he intended
to go to the Soviet Union.
I have the letter here and would like to read it into tlie record at this
point in order to identify Mr. Golos and World Tourists.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
506 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. The letter is dated June 17, 1935, addressed to In-
tourist, Inc., Paris, France. It reads :
Deak Mr. Toloteav: This will introduce to you Mr. Samuel Liptzen, a good
friend of mine, who will ask you to arrange a trip for him to the Soviet Union
via the Soviet steamer from Dunkirk, France, to Leningrad. Will you kindly use
your influence to secure the best accommodations for him and give him your best
attention.
With personal best wishes, I remain,
Very truly yours,
World Tourists, Inc.,
Jacob Golos, Manager.
Mr. Rankin. That is the same Eisler that the Negro witness Nowell
testified was an instructor in the Communist School of Revolution in
Moscow when he was over there; isn't that right ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; that is the same one,
Mr. Rankin. Where is this Golos now ? That is what I would like
to know.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Golos is deceased.
Mr. Rankin. Oh, he is dead.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you say you first met Mr. Golos in
October 1938?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Did your acquaintance with him in connection with
the activities of World Tourists increase to any degree, or was he a
casual acquaintance of yours ?
Miss Bentley. At first he was only a person to whom I gave infor-
mation about the Italian Library of Information and its Fascist activi-
ties. After I left there in the spring of 1939 I continued to have him
as my contact. I suppose now because he thought I was valuable
material that could be used in the future.
I did odd jobs for him like collecting material in the library for use
in what he said were articles in the New Masses, or receiving mail at
my address for him, and that sort of thing.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall whether or not j'ou ever received any
mail from Mexico addressed to Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Addressed to you but to be delivered to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. No. Canada, not Mexico.
Mr. Stripling. Did any of that mail come from Fred Rose ?
Miss Bentley. I can't state of my own knowledge, Mr. Stripling,
because I didn't look inside the envelopes, but I suspect it may have
been.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall what year it was you transmitted mail
from Canada to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I can tell you almost exactly. It was 1939,
1940.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever ask you to perform any special
duties for him in connection with any work that he was doing for the
Communist Party in behalf of the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. Later on, yes ; but do you mean in this period ?
Mr. Stripling. Any period.
Miss Bentley. Later on ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. When was that?
Miss Bentley. At about the start of the Russian-German war which
would be around June or July of 1941.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 507
]Mi'. Stkiplix(J. What did lie ask you to do?
Miss Bextley. He asked me to take charge of individuals and
groups. This was a gradual process, not all at once. It was to take
charge of individuals and groups who were employed in the United
States Government and in positions to furn.ish information.
JNlr. Striplixg. What kind of information?
Miss Bentley. All sorts of information — political, military, what-
ever they could lay their hands on.
Mr. Striplixg. Was he operating or had he set up a so-called
espionage organization to obtain information from Government em-
ployees and Government ofiicials to be transmitted to the Soviet Union ?
j\Iiss Bexteey. I think that he set it up. I rather doubt that he had
operated it before that. Of course, I can't state definitely.
Mr. Stkiplix^g. It was in operation, however, when you knew him ?
]\[iss Bex^tley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Would you tell the committee how this espionage
organization operated and 3'our participation in it?
Miss Bex'tley. It started with actual Government emploj'^ees in
about July 1941. when he told me that he had received from Earl
Browder the name of a man working for the United States Govern-
ment, who was interested in helping in getting information to Russia
and who could organize a group of other Government employees to
help in this work.
Mr. Rax^kix'. What kind of employees?
Miss Bex^tley. Government employees.
Mr. Striplix-^g. Did he tell you the name of the individual?
Miss Bextley, Yes.
Mr. Striplix'g. Who Avas the individual?
Miss Bex'tley. N. Gregory Sih^ermaster.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you know him also as Nathan Gregory Silver-
master? Was that his first name?
Miss Bextley. I think he told me his first name was Nathan, but
he had never used it. I believe that is it.
Mr. Striplixg. In what agency of the Government was Mr. Silver-
master employed at that time?
Miss Bextley. He was with the Farm Security Administration in
the Agriculture Department, and then in 1943, briefly, perhaps 6
months or so, he was in the BEW.
Mr. Striplixg. The Bureau of Economic Warfare?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
iVIr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, I have INIr. Silvermaster's employ-
ment history, which I would like to put into the record at this point.
However, I do not want to interrupt her testimony right now.
The CiiAiRMAx. May I ask a question right there for the record?
Was Mr. Silvermaster ever a witness before this committe or a
subcommittee of this committee in executive session ?
INIr. Striplix^g. Mr. Silvermaster — Do you mean was he ever a
witness before this committee?
The Chairmax. In executive session.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Silvermaster testified before the committee,
Mr. Chairman, on May 25 of this year. If you would like, I can read
his own testimon}^ as to his employment history in the Government.
The Chairmax^. Do you want to just put it in the record?
508 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. I want to know where he is now.
The Chairman. All right, put it in.
Mr. Kankin. Read it. Is he on the Federal pay roll now?
Miss Bentley. I have been told he is out of the Government. I
think Mr. Stripling would know more about it than I.
Mr. Rankin. Let's bring the investigation down to date.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rankin, he resigned last year when his salary
was cut from $10,000 a year to $8,000.
Mr. Rankin. He resigned what position?
Mr. Stripling. I will give you that. iVt the time he resigned he
was in War Assets.
Mr. Rankin. You mean he was a member of the Communist Party
at that time ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. An agent of the Conununist International?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I think you would call it that.
Mr. Rankin. And was employed by the War Assets Administration
here in Washington ?
Miss Bentley. He was employed by the War Assets Administration
after I knew him.
Mr. Rankin. I am talking about last year, within the last year.
As I understand from your testimony, this man was on the Federal
pay roll, was employed by the War Assets Administration and was
a member of the Communist Party and an agent of the Conununist
International ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley. I haven't seen him since the end of September 1944.
I can only tell you what he was up to that date. He was, during the
time I knew him ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. He was an employee, then, of the War Assets Adminis-
tration.
Miss Bentley. Not at that time; no. He was back in the Agri-
culture Department when I said good-by to him.
Mr. Rankin. But he was in the employ of the Federal Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Rankin. He was a member of the Communist Party, you say ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. And an agent of the Communist International ?
Miss Bentley. Probably an agent of the NKVD would be more
correct.
Mr. Rankin. That is the Russian Communist secret police?
Miss Bentley. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Rankin. And the Communists are dedicated to the overthrow
of this Government; is that right?
Miss Bentley. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you read that, please?
Mr. Stripling. This is in regard to the question asked about his em-
ployment in the Government.
He was first employed in the California State Relief Administra-
tion. Then, he testified that in August of 1935 :
I was offered a position in Wasliinuton with the Resettlement Administration.
I was with the Resettlement Adnnnistration from 19.35 on. In 1937, I believe, I
left Resettlement to accept a position with tiie United States Maritime Uabor
Board, and then in 1938 I went back to Resettlement, which was then the Farm
Security Administration, where I headed the Labor Division. Then, I believe it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 509
was June of 1942 or 1943, I transferred to the Office of Surplus Property of the
Procurement Division, and from there, by administrative changes, to the Com-
merce Department Office of Surplus Property, and from there by reorganization
to RFC.
Mr. Stripling. Did you say "by reorganization"?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes. Surplus Property Administration has gone through a
series of administrative evolutions, you might .say, and the Office of Surplus
Property of Procurement was moved from Procurement. It had handled con-
sumer goods. The consumer goods was in one agency and capital and producer
goods was in another agency. I was with the consumer goods in Procurement,
Treasury Procurement, in the Office of Procurement, and then the Commerce De-
partment, and then RFC, and finally War Assets, which integrated all of the
units under one administration.
Mr. Rankin. Did the investigator ask him at that time if he was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; he was asked that question.
Mr. Rankin. What did he sa}'?
Mr. Stripling. He refused to answer that question, Mr. Rankin, on
the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know where Mr. Silvermaster is employed now?
]Mr. Stripling. He is not employed in the Government. He is under
subpena of this committee, and I think the committee will have him
here.
Mr. MuNDT. Has he any connection with the United Nations?
]Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Now, Miss Bentley, will you continue with your testimony?
We were at the point where Mr. Golos had told you there was an
individual in the Federal Government who was to furnish information
to him.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Were there other people in the Government in this
group that Mr. Golos referred to ?
Miss Bentley. This was the first group of Government employees,
the first Government employees which Mr. Golos had taken on, and
which I, in the position of courier
Mr. Stripling. You were a courier ?
Miss Bentley. I v.as the person who made trips to Washington and
picked up the material and brought it back to Mr. Golos.
Mr. Stripling. How often did you come to Washington ?
Miss Bentley. About every 2 weeks.
Mr. Stripling. Can you name any other individuals that you know
of your own knowledge were members of this group, this espionage
group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Mrs. Silvermaster aided in it, although she
gave no information. She helped with the photography end of it.
William Ludwig Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. Was he in the Air Corps at that time ?
Miss Bentley. The first time I knew Lud he was in the Treasury
Department.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know what position he held in the Treasury
Department ?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether he was ever in the Air Corps
or not ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was.
510 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. During tlie war?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he was stationed in the Pentagon most of the
time.
Mr. Rankin. Is he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name any other members of the group
who were employed in the Government ?
(No response.)
Mr. Rankin. May I ask where this man Ulhnann is now ?
Is he still with us ?
Is he still operating in the Pentagon ?
_Mr. Stripling. From the investigators who have been working on
his case, I learn that he is no longer in the Treasury Department.
May I ask you, Miss Bentley, was one Solomon Adler a member of
this group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was.
]\Ir. Stripling. Was he a rather active participant?
Miss Bentley. Rather remotely, Mr. Sti'ipling, because at the time
I had charge of that group he was in China.
Mr, Rankin. Mr. Stripling
The Chairman. We had better continue.
Mr. Rankin. I want to find out about this.
The Chairman. We had better let the chief investigator ask her
any questions, and then we can ask questions later, because we have
got a long way to go.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, did you collect the Communist Party
dues for Mr. Adler and turn them over to Mr. Silvermaster? Do
you recall doing that?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Silvermaster gave me the dues for his complete
group and I take it for granted those included Mr, Adler, Since he
was in China, I am not too sure about it,
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Mr. Adler yourself?
Miss Bentley, No ; I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Did you understand that he at any time worked with
this group ?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; I did understand that,
Mr, Stripling, Do you know where Mr, Adler is employed at the
present time ?
Miss Bentley, No; I am afraid I do not,
Mr, Stripling, Mr, Chairman, according to our investigation Mr,
Adler is presently employed by the United States Treasury Depart-
ment in the Office of International Finance,
Are there any other persons who were employed in the Government
at that time who were members of this espionage group?
Miss Bentley, Yes, William Taylor,
Mr, Stripling, Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley, William was in the Treasmy,
Mr, Stripling. Do you know what position he held in the Treasury?
Miss Bentley. No"; I don't. He had a number of positions and
he was also sent abroad at various times, I believe he went to China ;
I believe he was sent to Portugal at one time.
The Chairman. By the Ti-easury De]iartment?
Miss Bentley. By the Treasury; yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 511
Mr. Striplixg. Were there any other individuals in the Treasury
Department who were working M'ith your group ?
Miss Bentley. With the Silvermaster group?
Mr. Strii'ling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. Yes; Harry Dexter White.
Mr. Stripling. What was Mr. White's position ?
Miss Bentley. I believe he was Assistant Secretary of the Treas-
ury. Is that correct, or do you call him an Under Secretary? I am
not sure.
Mr. Stripling. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury
The Chairman. The witness says she believes. What was he ? We
want to know.
jNIr. Stripling. He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and
head of Monetary Research, as I recall.
Mr. Rankin. Is he a Communist ?
JNIiss Bentley. I don't know whether Mr. White was a card-carrying
Communist or not.
Mr. Stripling. What was the extent of his cooperation with your
group ?
Miss Bentley. He gave information to Mr. Silvermaster which was
relayed on to me.
Mr. Stripling. At this junction, give us the mechanical operations
of the Silvermaster group. Before you do that, in order to clarify the
expression "Silvermaster group," were there other groups operating
within the Government collecting information on behalf of the Soviet
Union ?
Miss Bentley. I had one other group that I handled, and I had every
reason to believe there were other groups also.
Mr. Stripling. What was the other group that you handled ?
Miss Bentley. We called it the Perlo group. It was actually an
ex-Communist Party unit that I believe had been set up in Washing-
ton in the early thirties, and I gather, from what the members of tlie
group told me, that they had been in a minor way collecting informa-
tion for some years but not in an organized fashion.
IVIr. Stripling. Do you know this other group that you refer to
which you said was set up in the early thirties — Vvas that the group,
or did you ever hear it was the group, set up by Hal Ware ?
Miss Bentley. No; I never heard of that angle of it before.
Mr. MuNDT. You call it the Perlo group?
Miss Bentley. I call it the Perlo group because the ostensible leader
of it was Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. AVhere was Mr. Perlo employed at that time ?
Miss Bentley. In the WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Could you tell us what kind of position he held in
the War Production Board ?
Miss Bentley. I can't tell you the title which I didn't know, but
he was in a position that was handling aircraft production figures, be-
cause he had ready access to those.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he supply you with those figures ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Were any Members of the Congress, House or Senate,
in that group ?
Miss Bentley. No; I am sorry; no.
512 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, when was this you were in contact
with Victor Perlo when he was in the War Production Board — '43 and
'44?
Miss Bentley. I took that group over in about, I think, March of
1944.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, if the committee desires, I shall read
into the record the employment history of Mr. Perlo.
Tlie Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
The Chairman. The committee w^oulcl like to have the employment
record of each one of these read.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I shall read other information re-
garding his background, which has been obtained by the investigation
conducted by the staff of this committee :
Victor Perlo : The above-named individual was born on May 15, 1912, in New
York City. His parents were both born in Russia. His father's name was Samuel
and his mother's name was Rachel. Mr. Perlo attended scliool in Flushing, N. Y.
In 1931 he received an A. B. degree from Columbia University, and in 1932 he
received an M. A. degree. From June until July 1930 Mr. Perlo was employed
as a bank clerk in New York City. In 1931 and 1932 he was employed by a boys'
camp in Massachusetts. From September 1933 until June 1935 Mr. Perlo was
employed by the NRA. From June 1935 until Octol)er 1937, Mr. Perlo was em-
ployed by the Federal Home Loan Bank Board. From October 1937 until Sep-
tember 1939 Mr. Perlo was associated with the Brookings Institution. From
September 1939 until September 1940 Mr. Perlo was employed by the Depart-
ment of Commerce. From November 15, 1940, until February 17, 1943, Mr. Perlo
was employed by the Advisory Council on National Defense of the OPA. From
February 17, 1943, until May 1, 1945, Mv. Perlo was employed by the War Pro-
duction Board. From May 1, until December 14, 1945, Mr. Perlo was employed
by the Civilian Production Administration. Beginning December 14, 1945, Mr.
Perlo was employed by the Treasury Department, Office of Monetary Research,
which was the agency Harry Dexter White headed.
Mr. Mundt. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. Stripling. We do not.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist all during that time?
Miss Bentley. I would rather imagine so, Congressman, from what
he told me when I met him in '44. He told me he had been a Com-
munist over 10 years, so I imagine so.
Mr. Stripling. Did Victor Perlo turn information over to you?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Information which had been obtained from people
who were employed in the Government ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; either he or members of his group turned it
over ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name other members of his group before
we go on with the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. 1 will try to remember them. Allan Rosenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where he was employed ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he was in the FEA.
Mr. Stripling. In what ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know what those initials are.
Mr. Stripling. Was it the Board of Economic Warfare?
Miss Bentley. It was originally BEW, but then it became FEA,
Foreign Economic Administration. It was an amalgamation, I under-
stand, of several agencies.
Mr. Stripling. Can j^ou name any other member of the group?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 513
Miss Bentlet. Donald Wheeler.
Mr. Stripling. Was that Donald Niven Wheeler?
Miss Bentley, I don't know his middle name ; I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Was it Donald or David?
Miss Bentley. Donald.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where he was employed ?
Miss Bentley. OSS.
Mr. Stripling. Office of Strategic Services?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Any other members of the Perlo group ?
Miss Bentley. Charles Kramer.
INIr. Stripling. His real name was Charles Krevitsky. Did you
know that ?
Miss Bentley. I have been told that ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed at that time ?
Miss Bentley. I believe at the time I first met him he was in between
jobs. Then I believe he went with — is it Senator? — Kilgore. I am
not sure whether he was a Congressman or Senator. Later he went
with Senator Pepper.
The Chairman. Where is he now?
Mr. jNIundt. Is that Kramer the man you are talking about now ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Kramer a Communist ?
ISIiss Bentley. Oh, yes; of long standing, according to the story he
told me.
Mr. Stripling. I think that is rather certain, Mr. Chairman. If I
may read from the testimony which we took from him on July 2 —
I believe Mr. McDowell took the testimony
Mr. Mundt. I would like to have that testimony.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer first gave his employment record. He
said :
My last Governmeut employment was with the subcommittee of the Com-
mittee on Education and Labor of the Senate. Prior to that I worked for
the Office of Price Administration, and prior to that I worked for the National
Labor Relations Board, and prior to that for the United Mine Workers of
America ; prior to that for another subcommittee of the United State Senate
Committee on Education and Labor ; prior to that for the National Youth Admin-
istration ; prior to that for the Agricultural Adjustment Administration and
prior to that for the Institute of Social and Religious Research ; prior to that for
New York University.
Mt, Kramer, when asked if he was a member of the Communist
Party, refused to answer on the grounds tliat he might incriminate
himself.
Mr. Mundt. The two who were named just before Kramer — you
neglected to ask if they were Communists.
Mr. Stripling. Allan Rosenberg and Donald Wlieeler.
Miss Bentley. Yes ; they were.
Mr. Mundt. Both of them were Communists?
Miss Bentley. They were both Communists.
Mr. Stripling. Can you name any other members of the Perlo
group ?
Miss Bentley. Edward Fitzgerald.
Mr. Stripling, Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Miss Bentley. I don't know his middle initial, either.
80408—48 2
514 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
INIr. Stripling. Do you know where lie was employed ?
Miss BENTI.EY. WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member of the Communist Part}^ ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are there aiij- other members of the Perlo group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I don't recall his first name, because I only
met him once — Magcloff.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; 3'es.
Mr. Mdndt. Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. At the time I first met him he had just returned from
the Mayo Clinic in Kochester after a serious operation, and I believe
he didn't take any job for a bit, and then he went into the Commerce
Department.
Mr. Stripling. I have his employment record.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that during the time Henry Wallace was head
of the Commerce Department ?
Miss Bentley. I think probably part of the time; yes. I am not
too clear on when Mr. Wallace went in there.
Mr. McDowell. Do you know if this man is now employed in the
United States Government service?
Miss Bentley. No ; I wouldn't know. Most of these people I have
completely lost track of, but I imagine the committee probably knows
where they are.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, are you going to develop what kind
of information was turned over by these groups to this witness?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, Mr. Chairman; but I want first to identify
the people that comprised these groups. Then we will move from
that to the type of information turned over; what the witness did
with the information after it was turned over.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Stripling, will you be able to show that these
groups are still operative ^
Mr. Stripling. I would ratlier not say at this time, Mr. Eankin.
I would like to complete this testimony.
Mr, Rankin. That is what I am mostly interested in.
Mr. MuNDT. I think we should take it up in chronological order
and not jump to conclusions.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, do 3^011 want the employment record
of Mr. Magdoff?
The Chairman. Yes,
Mr, Stripling, April 1936 — rather, from October 11, 1931, until
May 31, 1935, Magdoff was employed by the Silk Textile Code Au-
thority, NRA, New York City. In the year 1935 he is reported to
have been ill. From April 1936 until May 1940 Magdoff was em-
ployed by WPA as a statistician and on the national research project.
From October 1, 1940, until August 15, 1941, he was employed in the
Statistical Division of the War Production Board and Office of Emer-
gency Management. August 16, 1941, until May 17, 1943, he was
employed by the War Production Board in its Bureau of Research
and Statistics. From May 18, 1943, until July 3, 1944, he was em-
ployed by the Tools Division of War Production Board. July 4,
1944, to March 1946 he was employed in the District of Columbia
by the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce. Magdoff was em-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 515
ployed by the Office of the Secretary of Commerce about April 1946
uiit'il December 17, 1946. Since the latter date he has been employed
by the New Comicil of American Business in New York City.
Did you ever collect any dues from Mr. Magdoff ?
Miss Bextley. The dues were brought to me by whicliever member
of the group came to New York City, and Mr. Magdoff's dues were
among them; yes.
Mr. SxRiPLmG. What did you do with his dues when they were
turned over to you?
Miss Bentley. I turned them over to Mr. Golos during his life-
time.
Mr. Stripling. Now, have you named all the participants in the
Perlo espionage gi'oup?
Miss Bentley. No. There was Harold Glasser, of the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Muxdt. Is Harold Glasser a Communist?
]\Iiss Bextley. Yes; they all were. This was an ex-Communist
Party unit, which means automatically they were Communists.
Mr. MrxDT. '"Ex" — that means previous.
Miss Bextley. It means before that they had been tied up only, as
I understand it, with the Communist Party, but then they were turned
over to me. Maybe I am using the wrong phraseology.
Mr. Muxdt. Thank you.
Mv. Striplixg. Would you like his employment record ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Strip^^ixg. This is Harold Glasser. This individual was born
November 23, 1905, Chicago, 111. His parents were Myra Glasser
and Rachel Olswang. Both of them were born in Russia.
F]-om ld'2'2 until 1928 Glasser studied at the University of Chicago.
From 1929 until 1930 Glasser studied at Harvard University. From
1930 to 1931 he studied at the University of Chicago. During part
of 1931 until 1932 Glasser was attached to the Brookings Institution
in AVashington. D. C. From 1932 until 1933 Glasser was attached
to the Labor Bureau of the Midwest in Chicago. From 1933 until
1935 Glasser taught at the Peoples Junior College in Chicago. On
August 16, 1935, Glasser became employed bv the WPA. This em-
ployment lasted until April 16, 1936. On May i, 1936, Glasser be-
came an employee of the Department of Agriculture, Minneapolis,
Minn. November 21, 1936, Glasser's employment with the Depart-
ment of Agriculture ceased, and he became an employee of the Treas-
ury Department in Washington. He was attached to the Division
of Monetary Research. On June 15, 1940, Glasser was loaned by the
Treasury Department to the Government of Ecuador. He served in
this capacity until May 1942, at which time he returned to the Treas-
ury Department. On November 30, 1942, Glasser was loaned to the
War Production Board, where he remained until January 10, 1943.
From February 1943 until September 1943 Glasser was an adviser on
the North African Affairs Committee at Algiers, North Africa.
Are there any other members of the Perlo group that you have not
named. ^liss Bentley?
Miss Bextley. There is just one more who didn't give any infor-
mation, but I know he belonged to the group, and that is Lischinsky —
Sol Lis-hinskv. He was with UNRRA.
516 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. What was his first name ?
Miss Bentley. Sol. I suppose it would be Solomon.
Mr. Stripling. Did you name everyone in the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. Would you continue to name them?
Mr. Kankin. Let's get something on this last man she named. Let's
get the facts on him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rankin, we don't have any information on this
gentleman ourselves.
Mr. Rankin. Maybe she has some.
Miss Bentley. I have very little. I did not meet him personally.
I just know what they told me about him and he never produced any
information, so we didn't consider him too valuable.
Mr. Rankin. You don't know where he is now ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I know where very few of these people are right
now.
The Cpiairman. Will the chief investigator get this information?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Peterson. I would like to ask a question. We want to be sure
we are not unfair to anyone.
With reference to the employment of Kramer, I believe the state-
ment was made that he had been employed by Senator Kilgore and
Senator Pepper. I believe the employment record did not refer to
that but referred to a committee. Do you know whether they were
employed individually by the Senators or by the committee of which
they were members ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know that. I know he simply referred to
it in that way, and I don't know exactly whether he was an employee
of the Senators personally or of the committee.
Mr. Peterson. You don't know of your own knowledge that he
was employed by either of the Senators ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. McDowell. If I recollect, Mr. Peterson, he testified he worked
in Senator Pepper's office.
Mr. Peterson. I didn't hear that testimony at the time, but I notice
in that he referred to committee employment.
Mr. Rankin. When was that testimony taken?
Mr. McDowell. While you were out.
Mr. Rankin. This morning?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. I didn't hear it.
Mr. Stripling. According to our investigation, Mr. Kramer actually
worked in Senator Pepper's office while he was on the pay roll of the
Subcommittee on Education and Labor. I think you will find that
he was quite active.
Mr. Rankin. Didn't he work in some other Senators' offices and
wasn't he insti'umental in trumping up the charges for the persecution
of Senator Bilbo?
Mr. Stripling. I don't know a thing about that, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. I think we should have some information on that point.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 517
The CHAiR:\rAX. Mr, Striplin<>:. you may proceed.
Mr. STKiriAXG. Miss Bentley. will you now go back to the Silver-
master group and name any individual who was a part of that group
that has not already been previously mentioned?
IMiss Bextley. George Silverman.
Mr. Stripling, George Silverman?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. Originally in, I think you call it, the Railroad Re-
tirement Board.
Mr. Stripling. Yes,
Miss Bentley, And when the war came he was given a quite im-
portant post with the Air Corps as a civilian in The Pentagon. I be-
lieve he was offered a colonelcy, but he turned it down and remained a
civilian employee there.
Mr. Stripling. Was Silverman a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, You collected dues from him?
]Miss Bentley. Yes.
]Mr, Stripling. Did he furnish information to your group?
Miss Bentley. Oh, quite prolific information.
Mr. Stripling. Before we go on with what was furnished, would
you tell the committee whether or not there is anyone else in this group
that you have not named ?
Miss Bentley. Frank Coe.
Mr. Stripling, Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. In the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow what his position was ?
]\Iiss Bentley. No; I am sorry. All these people Mr. Silvermaster
took care of, and I simply knew they had important jobs in the
Treasury, but I couldn't tell you what it was.
]\Ir. Stripling. He was a member of the Communist Party, accord-
ing to j^our information?
Miss Bentley. According to my understanding; yes.
Mr. Stripling. x4.nyone else?
Miss Bentley. William Gold.
Mr. Stripling. G-o-l-d?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Wliere was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it w^as then the FEA. I can't recall whether
BEAV or FEA, but it was that same outfit.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr, Stripling, Did he furnish mformation to your group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is there anyone else you haven't named?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; his wife, Sonia Gold,
Mr, Stripling. AVas she an employee of the Government?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; in the Treasury.
Mr. Rankin. Let me ask about this man Kramer. I was out when
you were testifying about him. Do you say Kramer was a member
of the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. He told me he had been a member for a good many
years.
518 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Ml'. Raxkix. That is all I wanted to know. My recollection is he
was one of the chief men who dug up those charges for the persecution
of Senator Bilbo, who was dying of cancer and fighting on the floor
of the Senate against this communistic program they are trying to
put through now, and I think this man Kramer was one of the chief
men in that conspiracy.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any other members. Miss Bentley, of the
Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Let's see, now, did I mention Irving Kaplan I
Mr. Stripling. You did not mention Mr. Kaplan. Where was he
employed ?
Miss Bentley. He v/as employed in the WPB. He was in a very
peculiar position because he was paying his dues to the Perlo group
and giving his information to the Silvermaster group. Somehow the
two groups got a little scrambled at that point.
jNIr. Stripling. Are there any others ?
The Chairman. When you have an employment record on any of
these people, we would like to have it read.
Mr, Ra.nkin. Wasn't this man Kaplan a member of this so-called
FEPC that was set up here in Washington by Executive order?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry, I don't know that.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Herbert
Schimmell?
Miss Bentley. No, I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
]Mr. Stklpling. Was he a member of either group ?
Miss Bentley. John Abt was the man who took charge of the Perlo
group before I had it.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether John Abt was employed in
the Government ?
Miss Bentley. No; I know very little about him except I believe
he was with the PAC at one time. Oi- the PCA.
Mr. Stripling. He is with Mr. Wallace noAv.
]Mr. Rankin. Get that PAC. That is very important. You mean
the CIO-PAC? Is that what you are talking about?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Is he still with them ?
Miss Bentley. I know very little about Mr. Abt. I only met him
twice and then only for the purpose of his introducing me to the
members of the Perlo group so that I could take it over.
Mr. Rankin. You do know he was a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any other members of the Silvermaster
group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes, Norman Bursler.
Mr. Stripling. Whei-e was he employed?
Miss Bentley. Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether John Abt was ever employed
in the Department of Justice ?
Miss Bentley. I know practically nothing of John Abt's back-
ground, I am sorry.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, before it slips my mind I would like
to suggest that our staff bring the employment record on all names
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 519
mentioned here today down to date, iiu'luding tlie present positions
they hold either in pnblic or private life.
The Chairman. Withont objection, it is so ordered.
jNlr. Striplixc. Mr. Chairman. 1 have certain information here on
Mr. Abt, but with the Chair's permission I would like to present it to
the committee in executive session, because of an investigation which
we have going on.
The reason, Mr. Mundt, that we do not have the employment record
of all these people is we have not previously interviewed this witness
in any way. We have not been in touch with her at all. The reason
these matters coincide is because we already had through our inves-
tigations the information that these people were involved.
ISlr. MuNDT. I am interested, Mr. Stripling, in getting their employ-
ment records down to date, because our experience on another com-
mittee of the House has been that, especiall}^ where Communists have
been employed in the State Department and then removed because of
loyalty charges, they have gravitated to the United Nations. I want
to find out if some of these other people have had similar experience.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir. We will begin working on that.
Are there any other names. Miss Bentley, of the Silvermaster group
that you have not mentioned?
Miss Bentley. Just one. The man was not a Communist but he
did give information. Lauchlin Currie.
JNIr. Stripling. What type of information did he give ?
Miss Bentley. Well, being in the position he was in, he had inside
information on Government policy,
Mr. Stripling. Was he a secretary to the President of the United
States?
Miss Bentley. I believe that was his title. I am not sure. I knew
he was one of that circle around the President ; yes.
Mv. Stripling. He was employed in the White House, was he not?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. What information did he furnish? What type?
Miss Bentley. He furnished inside information on this Govern-
ment's attitude toward China, tow^ard other governments. He once
relayed to us the information that the American Government was on
the verge of breaking the Soviet code, various things.
Mr. Stripling. But Mr. Currie was not a member of the Communist
Party to your knowledge?
Miss Bentley. Not to my knowledge ; I don't believe so.
Mr. Mundt. Wliere was he employed?
Miss Bentley. In the White House.
Mr. Stripling. Secretary to the President.
Mr. Mundt. President Truman?
Mr. Stripling. President Roosevelt.
Mr. Rankin. When was that?
Mr. Stripling. What year was that?
Miss Bentley. That was in 1943, 1944 — I believe he was there in
1942 also. I think in 1944 he moved into the FEA. At least, he had
a high-up position there.
Mr. Rankin. As a matter of fact, Mr. Mclntyre was secretary to the
President at that time, wasn't he ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know what Mr. Currie's title was, but I
think he is sufficiently well known so that someone would know.
520 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. If I remember correctly, Mr, Mclntyre was succeeded
by Steve Early.
Miss Bentley. Not that type of secretary. If he was a secretary at
all, he was an adviser to the President and not a secretary.
Mr. Rankin. I see. You tell the committee that this man Currie,
while he was employed in the White House, was giving your Com-
munist organization secret information?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Why did you wait so long to report that ?
Miss Bentley. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Rankin. Why did you wait so long to report that information
to a committee of Congress ?
(No response.)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Can we develop that a little later?
Mr. Rankin. It is very important. You were charging that there
was a Russian spy in the White House, and I would like to get the facts
about it now.
Mr. Stripling. The reason as to why she didn't report this earlier,
Mr. Rankin, we are coming to that.
Mr. Rankin. All right. I don't want to interrupt the gentleman's
procedure.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with Lauchlin Currie,
we have the file of the Civil Service Commission on Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster.
The Chairman. By the way. How do you spell that name?
Mr. Stripling. L-a-u-c-h-1-i-n C-u-r-r-i-e. The Civil Service Com-
mission had under investigation Nathan Gregory Silvermaster over a
long period of time. We have a file about this tall [indicating].
Mr. Rankin. What was that statement?
Mr. Stripling. We have a very voluminous file which the Civil Serv-
ice Commission accumulated on Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. From
time to time they would hear him regarding his alleged Communist
affiliations. We have a memorandum which states that after hearing
Mr. Silvermaster they were referred to Lauchlin Currie to get the true
facts on Silvermaster. After conferring with Lauchlin Currie, Mr.
Silvermaster remained in his employ. That is according to the files of
the Civil Service Commission.
Miss Bentley. May I say something, Mr. Stripling?
The Chairman. Miss Bentley.
Miss Bentley. It was definitely from my own knowledge due to Mr.
Currie's influence that Mr. Silvermaster was not ousted from his job
in the BEW but was permitted to return to the Agriculture Depart-
ment without any stigma on him.
Mr. Stripling'. Mr. Chairman, it is quite evident from examination
of the file, which I should be glad to place before the committee, that
there was some influence involved because the record was very straight
as to Mr. Silvermaster's long Communist associations and he was never
dismissed from the Government for that reason.
To clarify a point, Mr. Rankin, which we have checked, Mr. Charles
Kramer, whose name is Charles Krevitsky, was staff director on the
Education and Labor Committee, according to our information, and
Senator Pepper was chairman of the subcommittee.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 521
Mr. Kankik. I want to ask one more question.
AVas this man Cnrrie, whom you say was empk)yed in the White
House — was he under David K. Niles ?
Miss Bentley. I don't knoAv whether he was under Mr. Niles or
whether he worked as a coworker with Mv. Niles.
jNIr. Raxkix. But I understand from your statement that they were
associated.
Miss Bextley. From what I have heard, yes; they were associated,
but I don't know the relationship between them.
Mr. RAX'KIX^ Was Mr. Niles mixed up in all this movement that you
are talking about?
Miss Bextley. Not to my knowledge. From what I have heard of
Mr. Niles he wasn't, but I can't state of my own knowledge.
Mr. Raxkix . I see.
The Chairman. The chairman would like to make a statement at
this time. The committee will go into executive session at this time
and then shortly after that we will recess and convene again promptly
at 1 : 30 with Miss Bentley as a witness at that time.
Miss Bentley, will you stay there, please.
Mr. StripliX'G. Mr. Chairman, could we reconvene at 1:15?
The Chairman. All right, we will make it 1 : 15.
The committee will now recess. We will go into executive session.
(Whereupon, at l^J : 01 p. m., the committee retired into executive
session.)
afternoon session
Mr. Mux-^DT (presiding). The committee vrill please come to order.
Mr. Stripling, you may proceed with the interrogation.
Mr. Striplix-^g. Miss Bentley, when the committee recessed at noon,
I believe you had just completed naming the members of the Silver-
master espionage group, as well as the members of the Perlo espionage
group, who were employed in the Government.
Now, are there any other individuals who were members of either
group that you had not named tdda}- ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I don't believe so.
Mr. Striplixg. Could you tell me whether or not at any time the
group attempted to have a Government official transferred to a differ-
ent job in order that he might secure certain information ?
Miss Bentley. Yes: I understand that it was the general policy of
that group and also other groups to transfer anyone in what we would
call a "nonproductive"' job into a job that would be of more use. I
understood that in many cases they had conspired or finagled to move
people into better spots.
Mr. Stripling. Now that we have completed the naming of the
personnel which comprised each group, I vrish you would describe
to the committee the mechanical operation of the group, just how they
operated, what you did. what the group did.
Take the Silvermaster group first.
Miss Bentley. It was my policy to come down almost regularly
every 2 weeks. I would go to the Silvermaster home, very often have
dinner with them, spend the evening, and collect from the'm the infor-
mation which they had previously collected from the members of the
group.
Mr. Stripling. AVhere did he live ?
522 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. I can't remember the exact street. It was out just
before you get to Chevy Chase Circle. I think it was Thirty-fourth or
Tliirty-fifth Street. I have forgotten the address right now.
Mr. Stripling. Was it in the District of Coknnbia or was it in
Maryland?
Miss Bentley. It was within the District line ; yes. • I will tell you,
it was just about a block from Mr. Curley's
Mr. Stripling. Curley, C-u-r-1-e-y?
Miss Bentley. The former Governor of Massachusetts, was he not'^
Mr. McDowell. You mean Congressman Curley.
Miss Bentley. I believe it was just about a block from his house.
Is that Thirty-second Street ?
Mr. McDowell. There is no attempt here, I judge, to link Mr.
Curley
Miss Bentley. No. It is just that it is hard for me to remember
streets. I remembered how to get there, but it is hard for me to tell
you the street.
Mr. Stripling. Would it be Thirty-fifth Street?
Miss Bentley. No; I think it would be nearer Thirty-second. I
think it would be Thirty-second Street.
Mr. Stripling. We have it here, Mr. Chairman ; we will locate it.
Miss Bentley. I could take you out there, but I cannot remember
the number of it.
Mr. Stripling. What type of infoimation did Mr. Silvermasier
turn over to you ?
Miss Bentley. He turned over whatever members of his group se-
cured, which was varied, depending on the spot the person was in.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information was actually turned over
to you, and which you transferred to Mr. Golos?
Miss Benti>ey. Military information, j)articularly from the Air
Corps, on production of aii'planes, their destinations to the various
theaters of war and to various countries, new types of planes being
put out, information as to when D-day would be, all sorts of inside
military information.
Mr. Stripling. How would you transmit this information, yourself,
acting as a courier for the group ?
Miss Bentley. That depended. In the very early days they either
typed it out or brought me documents. Later on they began photo-
graphing it.
Mr. Stripling. Where was the photographing carried out?
Miss Benixey. In the basement of the Silvermaster house.
Mr. Stripling. They had the equipment there to do it ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they did. They had a Contax camera, and
had the set-up all ready for putting the documents in and holding the
documents in place.
Mr. Stripling. What did jon do with the photographs or documents
once you received them ?
Miss Bentley. I gave them to Mr. Golos.
Mr. Stripling. I mean, how did you take them back to New York?
Miss Bentley. Well, whatever way was practical. If I had a large
pocketbook and there was room in that, I took them, or in a knitting
bag or a shopping bag or whatever was handy, depending on the size
of the collection.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 523
Mr. Stripling. Did you have large packages of material to take, or
were the}^ usually small ?
Miss Bentley". Yes; toward the end ; yes. Toward the beginning it
was just starting, as you realize, and there was not too much material.
Also at that time we did not have anybody in the Pentagon, but then,
as the war progressed, and as we got people into the Pentagon, the
volume increased quite heavily.
Mr. Stkiplixg. Are you familiar with any specific plans or docu-
ments which came from the Pentagon which you delivered to Mr.
Golos?
Miss Bentley. Most of those documents were photographed and,
therefore, I do not remember the documents.
Mr. Stripling. Well, do you recall any particular photograph, any
particular plans for any aircraft?
JSIiss Bentley. I remember information on the B-29, some of which
was photographed, some of which I typed out.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, to go back to the address of Mr.
Silvermaster, it was 5515 Thirtieth Street.
Is that correct?
Miss Bentley. It was a street next to Thirtieth Place; that would
make it Tliirtieth; yes.
Mr. Stripling. How many trips would you say you made to Mr.
Silvermaster's home to collect information?
Miss Bentley. Well, I went every 2 weeks, and I knew them until
the end of September 1044. I don't know how many that would make,
added to which oftentimes they came up to New York in the mean-
while, and when they came they brought things, so it is, I mean, hard
to figure out exactly how many it would be.
Mr. Mundt. Wliere would they meet you in New York ?
Miss Bentley. Various places. Very often, one or the other of
them stayed in the Hotel Victoria or the Hotel Times Square, and I
would meet them there, or I would have breakfast w-ith them at
Schraffts on Times Square, you know, at Forty-third Street — all sorts
of places we went. We didn't always go to the same place.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet anyone in Washington besides Mr.
Silvermaster in relation to the Silvermaster group?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I met his wife, Mrs. Helen Silvermaster.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet her ?
Miss Bentley. At the house.
Mr. Stripling. Now, you stated that photographs were made
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In the Silvermaster's basement.
Do you know who made these photographs ?
Miss Bentley. Wlien Mr. Ullmann was available, he did it, because
he made himself into an expert photographer. When he was away,
or if it was just too much for him to handle, Mrs. Silvermaster worked
W'ith him.
Mr. Stripling. Did any of these people mentioned in the Silver-
master group ever come to the Silvermaster home while you were
there ?
Miss Bentley. Just once.
Mr. Stripling. Who was that?
Miss Bentley. George Silverman.
524 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. George Silverman? When you obtained the mate-
rial, you M'ent to New York and you turned it over personally to Mr.
Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes; until his death; yes.
Mr. Stripling. What did Mr. Golos do with the material ?
Miss Bentley. If the material was nonmilitary, of a political char-
acter, he first took it down to Mr. Earl Browder to show it to him, and
then passed it on to his Russian contact.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the Russian contact?
Miss Bentley. I think that his Russian contact was called Charlie,
but I don't know anything about that. We never kne^^■ them by any
other names than these nicknames.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see Charlie?
Miss Bentley. No, sir; not to my knowledge,
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any idea where Mr. Golos met Charlie ?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't. He was very discreet about his con-
nections.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know by what means Charlie relayed this
information to the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, your job ended when you delivered
it to Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever discuss with you in any detail
the method through which he transferred information ?
Miss Bentley. No ; he was very close-mouthed.
Mr. Stripling. During your activities in the Communist Party
and also during the period you were active as a courier in this espionage
ring, did you have any connection or contact with Louis Budenz?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I did.
Mr. Stripling. He was the general manager of the Daily Worker ?
Miss Bentley. I think that was his title. I thought he was one of
the editors.
Mr. Stripling. Managing editor, I am sorry.
Miss Bentley. He was one of the editors, I know.
Mr. Stripling. What was your relationship with Mr. Budenz in
connection with this work?
Miss Bentley. Well, I was introduced to him about 6 months or so
before Mr. Golos' death, because Mr. Golos was getting quite feeble
then and could not take care of it. He told me that Mr. Budenz was
of great value inasmuch as he had access to contacts who might be
useful to us, and also that he was in contact with people who could
give us useful information.
Mr. Stripling. Did you thereafter meet Mr. Budenz at any time?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. Did he give any information to you or did you give
any to him?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did give me information.
Mr. Stripling. What did you do with the information?
Miss Bentley. Brought it back to Mr. Golos as long as he was alive.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information was it that Mr. Budenz
gave you ?
Miss Bentley. He was a friend of Louis Adamic, the well-known
Yugoslav writer, and Mr. Adamic had some unofficial — I. don't believe
morning
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 525
he Mas paid — connection with the OSS which was then interested in
Yuiioslavia ; and Mr. Adamic gave this information to Mr. Budenz.
Mr. Budenz relayed it to me.
Mr. Rankin. What is the name of that man we mentioned this
?
Mr. Stripling. Charles Kramer.
Did you have any personal contact with Earl Browder himself?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I did; but in a business capacity only, after
Mr. Golos' death. Before that it was purely social. In other words,
when Mr. Golos went up to visit Mr. Browder at his summer place at
Monroe he would take me along, and I would talk to Mrs. Browder
and have dinner, but there was no business involved.
Mr. Stripling. Going now to the Perlo espionage group, who turned
the material over that that group collected?
Miss Bentley. I did not quite get that.
Mr. Stripling. Who was it in the Perlo group who turned the mate-
rial over to you?
Miss Bentley. Well, it depends. Whoever was coming to New York
on business or to see their family, or who was selected, came up.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, you did not come to Washington
for the purpose of collecting information from the Perlo group?
Miss Bentley. No ; I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Only the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; that is correct.
]\Ir. Stripling. Who, in the Perlo group
Miss Bentley. Well, I met Victor Perlo, Harry Magdoff, Edward
Fitzgerald, Charlie Kramer, Donald Wheeler, Allan Rosenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet these people, do you recall ?
Did you have a regular meeting?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I first met them, at least the four I first men-
tioned, I met the first time in Mr. Abt's apartment on Central Park
West.
Mr. Stripling. John Abt ?
Miss Bentley. About One Hundred and Third Street, I think it is.
I don't know the exact number.
Mr. Stripling. But your regular job, so to speak, as a courier, was
in collecting the information from the Silvermaster group here in
AVashington.
Miss Bentley. From the Silvermaster group and various indi-
viduals.
Mr. Stripling. Could you elaborate on the military information
Avhich you secured from the Silvermaster grouj) ?
Miss Bentley. Well, the military information came largely from
George Silverman and Ludwig Ullmann, and, as I said, it was infor-
mation of the most varied things you could think of. We had com-
plete data as to almost all of the aircraft production in the country,
as to types, how many were being produced, where they were allocated,
and so on. We had all sorts of inside information on policies of the
Air Corps. As I said, we knew D-day long before D-day happened,
and we were right. Practically all the inside policies that were going
(m inside the Air Corps. We got quite a bit of information about the
General Hilldring's activities.
Mr. Stripling. Would you identify General Hilldring?
526 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, I am not quite sure myself what his status was
in there.
Mr. Stripling. What was the type of information that you got
regarding General Hillclring ?
Miss Bentley. Mostly inside policy data on what we were planning
in the way, as I said, of invasions and action in Europe.
Mr. Stripling. Going back for a moment, you gave John Abt's ad-
dress as Central Park West. Was it 4M Central Park West. New
York City?
Miss Bentley. It could have been. I don't remember. I only went
there twice I think it was. It was around One Hundred and Third
Street. Would that be about right?
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Edward Newhouse ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Louise Bransten?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; I went to college with her.
Mr. Stripling. Did you have any subsequent acquaintance with her
after you left college ?
Miss Bentley. Not in any way that would affect this. I bumped
into her, I think in 1935, clown in Communist Party headquarters,
where we both expressed mutual surprise, and I know that she was a
very good friend of Helen Silvermaster, because Plelen Silvermaster
was always telling me about Louise and her past acquaintance with lier.
Mr. McDow^ELL. You went to Vassar College ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I understand, from what Louise Bransten
told me, that she went there 2 years and left at the end of the second
year. I don't remember her too well from college.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, did any of the people who were in-
volved in any of these groups receive any money from the Communist
Party or from yourself or from Mr. Silvermaster that you know of?
Miss Bentley. No; they received no money. They received only
traveling expenses if they had to come to New York.
Mr. Stripling. They did receive traveling expenses ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Stripling. From wdiom did they receive money?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Golos gave it to me, and I gave it to them.
Mr. Stripling. Why were these people furnishing information to
Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Because they had been told that it Avas their duty as
Communists to do it, and they had been told that Russia was our ally,
that she was bearing the brunt of the war, that she was not being
properly treated as an ally, and it was their duty to do something about
it.
(The Chairman, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas, assumes the chair.)
Mr. Striplin*;. Did you receive any money from Mr. Golos in
connection with your activities?
Miss Bentley. No; only expenses.
Mr. Stripling. Where w^ere you employed during this period?
Miss Bentley. In the United States Service and Shipping Cor}).
Mr. Stripling. What was the United States Service and Shippinu"
Corp.? ^
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 527
Miss Bentley. That was an oi-ganization which had a contract
W'ith Intoiirist JMoscow for the forwarding of packages to individuals
in the U. S. S. R.
Mr. STRirLiXG. You have no information as to how this informa-
tion was transmitted to the U. S. S. R. other than that it was turned
over to an individual by the name of Charlie?
Miss Bextley. That was during Mr. Golos' lifetime.
Mr. Stripling. Yes. After Mr. Golos died, what did you do with
the information ?
Miss Bentley. During the years 1941, 1942, and 1943, before Mr.
Golos died, he made alternate arrangements for me to meet contacts,
off and on, just in case anything happened to him and I would have
to carry on, and I had an appointment with one of these individuals
a few clays after Mr. Golos' death. Then I met her, and she said that
she had a new boss for me to meet, and introduced me to an individual
who called himself Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Bill?
Miss Bentley. And I continued to give the stuff to Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know now who Bill was ?
Miss Bentley. Xo ; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen him in recent years ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. When did you break with the Communist Party?
Mr. MuNDT. Was Bill a Russian or an American?
Miss Bentley. I would say from his accent and his physiognomy
that he was a Russian, although I could not swear to that.
The Chairman. Bill who ?
Mr. Stripling. That is the onh^ identity the witness has. Where
did you meet Bill ?
Miss Bentley. I met him on Park Avenue, about Fiftieth Street,
and he Avas coming one way on the street and we came the other, and
we met there.
Mr. Stripling. And you handed the information to him then?
Miss Bentley. That night I had no information. I had simply
to meet him in order to establish future relations.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet other individuals who you were to
work with in the event something happened to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. I had up to the end of September 1944, two con-
tacts, Bill and the original girl who had introduced me to Bill, an
American who Avent under the name of Catharine. I usually saw
Bill, but when Bill could not make it, Catharine got there.
Mr. Stripling. During this time did you visit the Communist Party
headquarters?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I went down ever so often to see Earl Browder.
Mr. Stripling. Was it in connection with these espionage activities
or not?
Miss Bentley. Yes; it was. It was in connection with these, be-
cause whenever I received material I continued Mr. Golos' practice
of taking it to show to Earl Browder.
Mr. Stripling. You showed all this material to Earl Brow^der?
]\liss Beniley. Except for the military. He did not wish to have
the military.
Mr. Stripling. The military was turned over to Mr. Golos?
528 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentlvy. Well, I understood you were speakino; about after
Mr. Golos' death.
Mr. Stripling. Well, let us get this straight now. Before Mr.
Golos died you turned everything over to him.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. After he died — — •
Miss Ben I LEY. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You turned only political material over to Mr.
Browder ?
Miss Bentley. I did not turn it over to him. I took it down and
let him look at it, and then I brought it back, and put it back with
the rest of the material, and passed it on to the Russians.
Mr. Stripling. But you did not show him material that was mili-
tary, any military material?
Miss Bentley. On his own request.
Mr. McDowell. It would be interesting to know why he did not
want to see military material.
Miss Bentley. There probably are a number of reasons, one of
which was that he did not want to be involved too deeply in it. I
don't know.
Mr. McDoavell. He had knowledge, however, that you had that
material ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes; but he just did not want to know it,
Mr. Rankin. That is the reason the Cominform ordered him re-
moved and this fellow William Z. Foster was put in his place. That
is testimony brought out before this committee.
By the way, who is this Catharine you referred to ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. You do not know her other name?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankin. Was she Russian, too?
Miss Bentley. We never knew the other names, and as far as I
know, no one knows.
Mr. Rankin. What did she look like?
Miss Bi^NTLEY. She was either Scotch or Irish, of Scotch or Irish
extraction. I would say she was about 5 foot 8, long and slender,
blond curly hair done in one of these — what do you call them — wind-
blown bobs, light hair, light eyes.
The CiiAiRMXN. If j'^ou saw a picture of her, you would recognize
her?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. While Mr. Stripling is getting ready for another
question, Miss Bentley, you said a little while ago that when you came
to Washington you contacted either Mr. Silvermaster or other in-
dividuals, indicating there might be some individuals outside of the
Silvermaster group whom you contacted.
Miss Bentley. Yes, there were.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they in the Government?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they Avere in the Government.
Mr. Mundt. Have you given us those names this morning?
Miss Bentley. No; Mr. Stripling has not asked me for them yet.
I was waiting for him to ask.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 529
Mr. MuNDT. I think we ought to complete the roster, if the list is
not too long, and I think you should furnish those names now so we
will have the names before us.
Mr. Stripling. You are referring now, Mr. Mundt, to Government
employees who were not members of either the Silvermaster or the
Perlo group.
Miss Bentlet. Would you like for me to start with that?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; give those names to the committee.
Miss Bentley. Duncan Lee.
Mr. Stripling. Duncan Lee?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. He was one of the legal advisers to Gen. William
Donovan in the OSS.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. And he was an assistant to whom?
Miss Bentley. Well, there was a circle of lawyers around General
Donovan in the OSS, and he was one of them. He had worked with
General Donovan in his law firm before he went into the OSS.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question at this
point. This is with regard to the names on the list that have already
been covered. I would like to ask a question about the list that has
already been covered. I would like to ask that before you go ahead
with this list, if you want to.
The Chairman. We would rather follow in chronological order and
continue with this list.
Mr. Mundt. Is that all the information you have on Duncan Lee,
Miss Bentlej^ ?
Miss Bentley. What else would you like to know about him?
Mr. Mundt. Wliat kind of information can you give us ?
Miss Bentley. All types of information were given, highly secret
information, on what the OSS was doing, such as, for example, that
they were trying to make secret negotiations with governments in the
Balkan bloc, in case the war ended, that they were parachuting people
into Hungary, that they were sending OSS people into Turkey to
operate in the Balkans and so on. The fact that General Donovan
AN-as interested in having an exchange between the NKVD and the.
OSS, all sorts of information.
Mr. Mundt. Inasmuch as Duncan Lee was not a member, apparently,
of the Silvermaster group, how did you establish the first contact
with him ?
Miss Bentley. Well, Duncan Lee was a member of the IPR, or
Institute for Pacific Relations, in New York, and through that he
knew Mildred Price, who was Mary Price's sister. And when Duncan
Lee was sent down to Washington to join the OSS, Mary came to us,
told us about him, and we were to take him on. Mar}" took care of
him for awhile, and then Mary left Washington, and I took him over
at that ])oint.
Mr. MuxDT. Just how did you establish your first contact with
Duncan Lee when vou first came down? You said, "I am tlie gal
who IS going to be your contact?
80408 — 48 3
530 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, he had been dealing with Mary. He knew
Mary personally, you see, through her sister, and Mary had told him
about me, and the name I had gone by, which was Helen, and I just
walked into his apartment and said, ''I am Helen," and spoke about
things that only the two of us would know, and that is how we made
our contact.
Mr. MuNDT. So you met him in his apartment to get the informa-
tion?
Miss Bentley. Well, all of this varied. It started with his apart-
ment, and then he got very nervous and wished to meet me in the
street, so we would meet in drug stores, and so on. All of this varied.
There was no standard practice. Sometimes it was one place and
sometimes another.
Mr. jMundt. Who else, then, besides Duncan L^e, in this group of
miscellaneous individuals, belonged to neither group '\
Miss Bentley. Helen Tenney. She worked in the — well, I would
guess you call it the hush-hush division of the OSS, in the Spanish
Division, and then when that sort of dried uj). why, she was handling
the Balkans, too, at one time.
Mr. MuNDT. She was a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Who else ?
Miss Bentley. J. Julius Joseph.
Mr. MuNDT. Where did he work?
Miss Bentley. Well, originally he was in the predecessor to the
War Manpower Commission. Then he went into the War Manpower
Commission; then, when he was about to be drafted, he pulled strings
through a friend of his, whose name I don't know, and got himself
pullecl out into the OSS, where he was in the hush-hush Japanese
Division, which was right next door to the Russian Division, so in
addition to things on Japan, he also had information on what they
were doing about Russian activities.
Mr, MuNDT, Is he a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; his wife also worked for the OSS, for about
6 months, in the Publicity Division, the division where they used to
23ut together these films to show to the General Staff.
Mr. MuNDT. She also was a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Who else ?
Miss Bentley. Maurice Halperin. He was head of the Latin-
American Division. He was head of the Latin-American Division
Research and Analysis Branch of the OSS.
Mr. MuNUT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. What kind of information would he give you?
Miss Bentley. Well, in addition to all the information which the
OSS was getting on Latin America, he had access to the cables which
the OSS was getting in from its agents abroad, world-wide informa-
tion of various sorts, and also the OSS had an agreement with the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 531
State Department whereby he also coukl see State Department cables
on vital issues.
Mv. MuNDT. How did j'ou- establish your first contact with Mr.
Halperin?
INliss Benti.ey. Well, Mr. Halperin got stranded in Washington
without a contact, and he was a friend of Willard Park, who has not
yet been mentioned, and the two of them got together and got in con-
tact with Bruce Minton, whose real name is Richard Bransten, and
asked him what to do, and he came to New York, and saw Mr. Golos,
and arrangements w^ere made for me to go to Mr. Park's house and
meet the two of them.
Mr. JNIuNDT. Bruce INIinton made that arrangement?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is Bruce Minton ?
Miss Bektley. I don't know what he is right now, but at that time
he was writing for the New Masses.
Mr. JMcDowELL. He was one of the editors of the New Masses.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with Willard Z. Park,
our investigation shows that he resides at 36 Poplar Avenue, Takoma
Park, Md. He was employed at the time in the office of the Co-
ordinator of Inter-American Affairs, and a cousin of Richard Brans-
ten, alias Bruce Minton, formerly editor of the New Masses.
On January 2, 1944, Louise Bransten vv-as a gTiest at his home; he
was also active in the American Peace ^Mobilization in 1940, which or-
ganization, as you recall, was picketing the White House.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you also make a contact with Mr. Park?
INIiss Bentley. Yes, I did, but he did not last too long. He was
in the CIAA, that Nelson Rockfeller outfit, and he was not a Com-
munist Party member. He was what we called a sympathizer, and
was not too ready to help, and he was rather temperamental, and his
information was not too valuable, besides which we had two other
people in the same office, so we did not carry on wdtli him very lono-.
Mr. MuNDT. Who were the other two people ?
Miss Benixey. One was Robert Miller, who was the head of the
Research Division of the CIAA, and the other was Joseph Gregg, who
Avas one of his assistants.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Miller a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. jNIundt. How did you spell Gregg ?
Miss Bentley. G-r-e-g-g.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he also a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes; he had fought in the Spanish civil war.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. How much dues would these fellows pay ?
Miss Bentley. That depended entirely on their income, and on
the Communist Party scale of dues at that time. Both of them
changed considerably.
Mr. Mundt. In general terms, what was the donation, small or
large, that they made?
532 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, they had a sliding scale, going up to about
$5,000 a year, and after that they imposed a surtax of about 20 per-
cent, I think it was.
Mr. MuNDT. That is an excess-profits tax? [Laughter.]
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. What would be Silvermaster's payment on $10,000 ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know. He was paying quite a bit, and he
was paying certainly over $5 a month. He figured out the whole
amount of dues, and collected the dues from his interior group, and
we left it up to him to be sure that it came out right, but he was our
heaviest contributor to our fund.
Mr. Kankin. What was the name of Gregg?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Joseph Gregg.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know his wife Ruth ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, at this point I would like to intro-
duce— have you completed naming the outside members?
Miss Bentley. Not quite.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any others that you have there?
Miss Bentley. Yes; Bernard Redmont.
Mr. Stripling. If you have a list there, you may refer to it if j^ou
want to refresh yourself on it.
Miss Bentley. I was trying to, it is too hard to remember all. Ber-
nard Redmont, who worked for the CIA A, but the information he
gave me I would not classify as b?ing secret, because he was in the
pi'ess division, and I don't believe tliey had anything that was secret.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we also have certain information
here regarding Mr. Remington, but the committee of the Ser.ate under
Senator Ferguson is holding hearings on that matter, and so, if the
Chair desires, we will not go into that at this time.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr, Stripling. Are there any other names?
Miss Bentley. I don't believe so. I think that just al)Out com-
pletes the list of Government employees.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to ask a question.
The Chairman. Before you read anything, I just would like to sug-
gest to the members of the committee that we go on in chronological
order, and that we let the chief investigator ask as many questions
as he has there, and after that bring in any other questions we may
have, but if you have got something special here, why, go ahead.
ISIr. MuNDT. This deals with the employment record of Maurice
Halperin, which I think we should have in the file, r* roni 11)41 to 1946,
during that period, he was Division Chief in the Office of Strategic
Services, and also in the Department of State, in charge of Latin
American research and analysis. I think that you told us that much.
Also tliat he maintained under him an active direction of 50 staff
members — specialists, including political scientists, economists, geog-
ra])hers, historians, and anthrojjologists; research })]anning and super-
vision of over GOO reports dealing with basic jioliticai, economic,
geographic, and militaiy problems and conditions in all I>atin-Amer-
ican countries.
He has a loiig list of employment with the Government, Mr. Chair-
man, and I think it should be placed in the record.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE . 533
The C'JiAiRMAN. Without objection, so ordered.
(The data on Maurice Halperin is as follows:)
:»lAUi:lCE IIALPEKIN
Office : Room 1401. 521 Fifth Avenue, New York 17, N. Y. Telephone MU 2-7197.
Home: 438 Crown Street, Brooklyn 25, N. Y. Telephone: SL G-9U58.
Personal:
Born in Boston, Mass., 1906. A. B., Harvard, 1927; A. M., University of
Oklalioma, 1929. Doctorate, Sorbonne (Paris), 1931, major: Letters; minor:
International relations, economics.
Family: Wife, 2 children (age 11 and 16).
Employment
University teaching (1927-41) : American lecturer, Sorbone (Paris), 1930-31
(North American Civilization), instructor, assistant and associate professor of
Romance languages; University of Oklahoma (specialization: Latin American
civilizatioii. modern French literature and civilization) ; visiting professor. Uni-
versity of Florida, summer, 1941 (resigned before assuming post to enter Govern-
ment war service).
War service (1941-46) : Division Chief in Office of Strategic Services (Septem-
ber 1941-October 1945) and in Department of State (October 1945-June 194G), in
charge of Latin-American research and analysis.
Maintained active direction of staff of 50 regional and functional specialists,
including political scientists, economists, geographers, historians, and anthro-
pologists; research planning and supervision of over 600 reports (approximately
75 of major scope) dealing with basic political, economic, geographic, and military
problems and conditions in all Latin-American countries.
Chairman of special joint Army-Navy-OSS intelligence project, under direc-
tion of Joint Chiefs of Staff. Addressed plenary session of Inter-American
Defense Board ; lectured at Military Government School, University of Virginia ;
served on several interagency committees. Participated in United Nations Con-
ference on International Organization, San Francisco, April-]\Iay 1945. •
Consultant to the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations repre-
senting the Coordinating Board of Jev.'ish Organizations (American Jewish Con-
ference. Board of Deputies of British Jews, South African Jewish Board of
Deputies).
Concurrently secretary of the coordinating board ; foreign relations specialist,
American Jewish Conference.
As United Nations consultant, attends sessions of major United Nations bodies ;
maintains liaison with the delegations of the member states and with officers of
United Nations Secretariat.
Prepares and submits memoranda on human rights, genocide, status of
refugef^s, and related matters to various United Nations bodies and specialized
agencies such as IRO and UNESCO.
Presented oral statements on proposed international group libel statute at
second session of the Subcommission on Freedom of Information and the Press,
Lake Success, January 21 and January 28, 1948.
Initiated with the Department of Public Information, and assisted in organ-
izing the first United Nations broadcasting service in the Hebrew language,
beamed to Palestine.
As secretary of the Coordinating Board of JewLsh Organizations, organized
New York secretariat, negotiated with United Nations for consultative status,
under provisions of article 71 of the United Nations Charter ; maintains secre-
tariat of the board and liaison with its American, British, and South African
affiliates.
As foreign-relations specialist of the American Jewish Conference, advises
on drafting of submissions to governments in matters relating to the peace
treaties, restitution of and indenmification for loss of life and property in German-
dominated Europe, the Palestine question, etc.
Maintains liaiscm with Department of State, including direct contact with
Seeretai'y of State and chief officers of the American delegation to the United
Nations. Represents conference at meetings of American voluntary organiza-
tions, including Citizens Committee on Displaced Persons, American Association
for the United Nations, Common Council for American Unity, etc.
534 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Now, go ahead, Mr. Stripling, and keep going.
Miss Bentley. Excuse me, Mr. Stripling, there was one more that
I forgot about, Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Michael Greenberg. Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. He was working for Mr. Currie, and whatever Mr.
Currie
Mr. Stripling. Lauchlin Currie ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was a specialist on China.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. He was not a member of the party here because he
was an Englishman, English born, and subsequently, I believe, became
an American citizen. But at that time the Communist Party would
not accept aliens — for what reason, I do not know — and, therefore,
although he had been a member in England, I understand he was
not a member of the American [Communist] party at that time.
Mr. MuNDT. They would not accept aliens. Of course, those aliens
could not become American citizens under our statutes, and for that
reason they did not and do not take them as members.
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. AVhat is his name ?
Miss Bentley. Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question or two.
In the first place, I don't think we ought to skip this fellow Reming-
ton. We have long- since depended on the other body — too long now —
to make these investigations. This committee has had to do such
investigating, and I am in favor of going on through with it.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, I assure you that Mr. Remington will
not be skipped.
Mr. Rankin. I do not think we ought to skip him today. Another
committee called for information on people in his category, and gave
information on every one of them except this man Remington. He
is on the Federal pay roll, and I understand he is on the pay roll, and
if he is a Communist, I think we ought show it up.
The Chairman. How long will it take you to take up Remington ?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, as you know, we issued a subpena
for Mr. Remington for July 8, but since the committee of the Senate
is investigating, I think we should examine their record before we
proceed with what we have here.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think our chief investigator is abso-
lutely right. As long as a committee of the Senate is dealing with this
matter, there is no reason for us to intrude ourselves in that particular
case and we should let them go ahead and dispose of it.
The Chairman. Well, I agree with that, but there is one very special
reason why I agree with Mr. Rankin. Mr. Remington lived in my
congressional district, and I don't want anybody to think that for one
moment we are not taking up Mr. Remington because he lives in the
town next to mine. In fact, if I had my way, we would start off with
Mr. Reminiiton.
Now, how do you feel about it ?
Do you want to take up Mr. Remington now ?
Mr. Rankin. I want to say this: When Senator Bilbo was dying
of cancer, standing on his feet, wearing his life away fighting this
so-called "civil rights," this Communist progi'am, this element trumped
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 535
up a persecution over there because of his fight against this commu-
nistic movement, and some of the names that have been mentioned here
today vrere mixed up in it.
Now, the Senate, the majority of the Members of the Senate, at that
time participated in that lynching of Senator Bilbo, and I am not
willing to turn over to a Senate committee the prerogatives of this
committee to investigate people on the Federal pay roll who are known
to be Communists and plotting the overthrow of this Government. If
this man Remington is a Communist, I think we ought to bring the
facts out here. Communists picketed Senator Bilbo's residence, within
2 blocks of the Senate Office Building, for months and months and
months, and nothing was done about it. I am not willing at this time
to abdicate our prerogatives and pass them on to a committee that
has waited all these years and let the Dies committee and this Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities do the investigating. I think this
man Eemington should be investigated now. and I want to see it done.
The Chairmax. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think we are aware of the fact that
the Senate committee is investigating Mr. Remington and his con-
nection with this group at the present time, and in view of the fact
that they are conducting that investigation, I think that in the interest
of getting as much information as we can on matters that are not under
investigation that it would serve our purposes best to go ahead with
other items and other individuals, rather than Mr. Remington, and
then come back to him in the event that we have additional informa-
tion that is not brought out in the Senate investigation.
There are certainly no members of this committee who want to
leave any stone unturned in regard to Mr. Remington or any other
individual, but I do think, in the interest of getting as much done as
possible in the time that we have, that it would be a duplication ; so
I would suggest that the Chair rule, if possible, that we should go
ahead now with other individuals, other than Mr. Remington.
The Chairman. Let me ask this question of the chief investigator.
Is Mr. Remington under subpena now?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
The Chairman. Then, I want a subpena issued for Mv. Remington.
How many witnesses are there under subpena here ?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Sil verm aster is under subpena, Mr. Kramer is
under subpena, Mr. Magdoif is under subpena, and there are several
subpenas which have already been issued, but we have not been able
to serve them.
The Chairman. All those who have been issued, have them served
just as promptly as possible, and I will sign subpenas for all the other
names of the persons that were mentioned here today, who have not
already been served, or who we have not subpenaed, or have not sub-
penas made out for them, and we will have them all in, and they can
all be heard, and we will have one right after another in a public
hearing.
Now, as far as Remington goes, the Chair regrets to have to rule that
while the present situation exists we will not take up the Remington
case right at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, in connection with your ruling, may I
suggest that the Remington employment file be inserted right here the
53G COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
same as all these other people — I mean the same as all these other
people named.
The Chairman. That is so ordered.
(The employment record referred to is as follows :)
WILLIAM WALTER REMINGTON
This individual was born October 25, 1917, in New York City. He graduated'
from tlie Ridgewood, N. J., liigh scliool in 1934. He received an A. B. degree
from Dartmouth College in 1939 and in 1940 he received an M. A. degree from
Columbia University. Remington's parents, Frederick Clement Remington and
Lillian Sutherland, were born in Ridgewood, N. J.
From September 1936 until April 1937, Remington was employed by the TVA
at Knoxville, Tenn.
From April 1937 until August 1937, Remington was associated with the Workers'
Education Committee in Knoxville, Tenn.
From May 1940 until June 1941, Remington was employed by the Natural
Resources Planning Board in Washington, D. C.
From July 1941 through January 1942, Remington was employed by the OP A.
From February 1942 until April 1944. Reniluglion was employed by the WPB.
From April 1944 until January 1945, Remington was in the Navy school at
Boulder, Colo., from which institution he received a commission as ensign.
From February 1945 until June 1945, Remington was attached to the United
States Navy in Washington, D. C, as a Russian translator.
From July 1945 until November 1945, Remington was employed in the Ameri-
can Embassy in London, England, by the Economic Affairs Mission.
From December 1945, Remington was employed by the Office of War Mobiliza-
tion and Reconversion.
Subsequently, Remington was employed by the Economic Affairs Committee
executive office of the President and by the Department of Commerce.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the people who
have been mentioned, who have been named by this witness as being
involved in this espionage ring, I should like to point out that we had
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster before a special subconnnittee of this
committee on May 25 of this year. Now, Mr. Silvermaster had been
called before the New York grand jury and, I believe, you, Miss Bent-
lev, were also a witness before the New York grancl jurv; were you
not?
Miss Bentlet. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. StriplinCx. I would like to read into the record at this point,
Mr. Chairman, the testimony of Mr. Silvermaster, and call your atten-
tion to the answers that he gives when we asked him if he knows certain
people. I will read from Mr. Silvermaster's testimony.
Mr. Hebert. May I, before Mr. Stripling does that, and for the sake
of orderly procedure, inquire if you do not think that these parts of
the testimony that a man has given before — that he should be con-
fronted with that testimony in open hearing ?
Mr. Striixing. As a witness?
Mr. Hebert. As a witness.
Mr. Stripling. This is testimony before our committee that I am
reading.
Mr. Hebert. I recognize that. But if you go into what Mr. Silver-
master testified in executive session here, would that have any bear-
ing on what the witness testified about Silvermaster ?
Mr. Stripling. That ties right in.
Mr. Hebert. I am sure Mr. Stripling knows what I have in mind,
and I want to avoid that. I want to avoid that if that is going to be
brought into it.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 537
Mr. STRirLiNG. I am not going to ask the witness any questions
based on what I shall read.
Mr. McDow^ELL. You are not going to read all the testimony.
Mr. Stripling. No.
Mr. Kankin. Mr. Chairman, right on that point, we are not sup-
posed to bring all these men who are charged with treason or con-
spiring to overthrow this Government before this committee. This is
a form of grand jury by a committee of the House of Representatives.
No grand jury ever calls a defendant. You have not had a single
Communist, with the exception of a, little group consisting of William
Z. Foster and Ben Davis, that crowd, to admit before the committee
that they were Communists, but, as a rule, they have refused to testify.
Now, we don't have to bring them in here. If this witness has in-
formation that this man Remington or these other men are Commu-
nists, we have a right to ask those questions now.
The Chairman. Just a minute. We want to hear these people;
we have got some new names today and consequently we want to have
them in as witnesses, just as we have had Silvermaster and these others
in executive sesssion. We might as well, now that it has gotten this
far in the open — we might as well have the whole thing in the open.
Mr. Hebert. I want to make this observation. I want to disagree
with my colleague from Mississippi that this is a grand-jury inves-
tigation. If anybody puts in jeopardy an individual who is charged
with being a Communist, I think, in fairness, that this individual
should be allowed his day in court here in public hearing as well.
Now, if you were in a secret session or in executive session, and these
names were used, then we owe them no obligation, but the minute
that we allow a witness on the stand to mention any individual, that
individual has a right to come before this committee and have his day
in court, and every man or woman mentioned here this morning has
a right to be subpenaed to come here.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert, I will promise you that they will have
_ their day in court.
Mr. Rankin. Nobody has asked to come here.
The Chairman. They will have their day in court.
Mr. Rankin. It certainly is putting the cart before the horse when
you have the witness before you who has the testimony.
The Chairman. Now, what about this man Silvermaster? What
do you want to read from the record ?
]Mr. Stripling. I want to read certain excerpts of his testimony
in the record at this time.
The Chairman. You know what part Mr. Hebert does not want?
Mr. Hebert. I am fully aware of that.
Mr. McDowell. Before we go into that, I am in agreement with the
position taken by Mr. Mundt and Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Stripling. As I say, Mr. Chairman, Silvermaster testified on
May 25, 1948- before a subcommittee of this committee. He was asked
this question :
Ml'. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Silvermaster replied :
I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question, sir, on the grounds stated
previously.
538 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The grounds stated previously, Mr. Chairman, are :
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that I might incriminate myself.
The testimony continues :
Do you know Victor Perlo?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I ret'usc to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell asked him ?
Do you know Harry MagdofE?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuso to answer this question, sir, on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell. William Walter Remington?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Russell. Joseph Gregg?
IMr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer the question, same grounds.
Ml-. Russell. Ruth Gregg?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer.
Mr. Russell. John Abt?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer, sir.
Mr. Russell. Charles Kramer?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer, sir.
Mr. Russell. Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer the question.
Mv. Russell. Louise Bransten?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Russell. Donald Niven Wheeler?
• Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. RussELL. Harry Dexter White?
Mr. SiL\'ERMASTER. I refusc to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell. Maurice Halperin?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I have to refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell, still questioning the witness, asked :
What was your address when you resided in Washington, D. C?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 5-515 Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Russell. Have any of the persons whom I have named ever visited you
at that address?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
I should now like to read into the record the testimony of Mr. Charles
Kramer, who testified before this committee on July 2, 1948, in execu-,
tive session,
]\lr. Nixon. One moment there. Do I understand that the witness
refused to answer questions concerning the various people that you
named in this testimony on the grounds that he might incriminate
himself ?
Mr, Stripling. He refused to say whether or not he knew these par-
ticular people, most of whom this witness has named and involved in
this espionage ring, on the ground that he might incriminate himself,
and he was supposed to be the head, according to her testimony — the
head of this group in Washington.
Mr. Kramer testified that he also appeared before the grand jury in
New York. He was asked by Mr. Russell :
Were you acquainted at any time during your life with an individual named
Harold Ware, who is now deceased?
Mr. Kramer. That is a question that was put to me before the grand jury, and
I made the answer then, I make the answer now, that I must decline to answer
, on the grounds that this might be self-incriminating.
Mr. Russell asked the witness :
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party of the
United States?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer on the same grounds to that question.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 539
Mr. RrssELL. Mr. Kramer, did you ever confer with Harold Ware regarding
the formation of Communi.st cells in Government agencies in the District of
ColumhiaV
Mr. Kramer. The same answer to that question.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Kuth Gregg?
Mr. Kra:mer. No.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Daniel Melcher?
JMr. Kramer. No.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Kramer. Tlie .same answer to that question.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever visited Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever request him to reproduce any documents for you
through means of certain photographic equipment which Mr. Silvermaster had
in his possession?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer to that question.
He was then asked. Mr. Chairman, was he acquainted with or did
he know certain individuals, to which he answered the question if he
did or did not know. I see no point in bringing their names into this
particular hearing.
But later he was asked whether or not he knew certain people whom
the witness has named here today, and he refused to answer on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Miss Bentley, do you know James Roy Newman ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankix. Mr. Chairman, while Mr. Stripling is conferring, I
would like to ask the witness a question about this man Currie.
oNIiss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Rankix. Lauchlin Currie was one of the names in the Congres-
sional Directory for 1943, and it shows that he was one of the adminis-
trative assistants in the White House. Is that the man you are talking
about 'i
Miss Bentley. That is right ; that is the man.
Mr. Raxkix. Another administrative assistant was William H.
McReynolds; others were Lowell Mellett and David K. Niles. They
all seemed to hold a coordinate position.
Do you know anj'thing about the records of these other men ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I am sorry ; only what I have read in the news-
papers or magazines.
Mr. Mt'XDT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an observation.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuxDT. I think it would be interesting for a matter of record
for you to tell us the actual steps you took by which you changed from
being simply a member of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee
and became an actual Communist. You said that a lady, and a former
professor at Columbia University under whom I am ashamed to say
I once studied as a student at Columbia, introduced 3'ou to communism.
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. What were the overt steps you took by which you be-
came a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. I am afraid that is an awfully difficult question to
ansAver. Tliinking back on it, it is rather hard to remember my state
of mind at that particular moment. As I said, I was quite infuriated
with what I liad learned about fascism in Italy, and the only people
who would listen to me were the people in the American League
Against War and Fascism, and, as I said, I gradually got into that, and
540 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
gTadually there I met Communists, both in Columbia and downtown,
and gradually my ideas began to change. I suppose, in a vray, I was
a very confused liberal, and, unfortunately, we confused liberals have
a tendency to look for guidance some place and a tendency to admire
efficient people who know where they are going and seem to be doing
a good job in the right direction,
Mr. MuNDT. Did you finally take an oath of allegiance or sign a
document, or something of that kind ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. You simply started paying your dues ?
Miss Bentley. I simply started paying dues ; yes.
Mr. IMuNDT. To the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. I don't think you told us this morning, either, how you
established your first contact with Mr. Silvermaster. When you came
down here as a courier, how^ did you establish your first contact ?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Silvermaster came to New York to see Mr. Golos
at the behest of Earl Browder, and after Mr. Golos had had a prelimi-
nary meeting with Mr. Silvermaster, he came back to me and said that
Mr. Silvermaster was remaining 2 or 3 days, and that arrangements
had been made for me to go to Washington — to go directly to the
Silvermaster house and make the acquaintance of Mrs. Helen Silver-
master so that they would know who I was and realize that I was the
person who was going to make the contacts in the future, and then
later on
Mr. MuNDT. What did you tell her at that time to identify yourself
as the specific person who was to get the information ?
Miss Bentley. I was told to say I was Helen and I was to tell her
that her husband had arranged for me to come down. I v/ent to her
house, made her acquaintance, and we talked about various things,
and it was arranged that I would come down every week and visit
them.
Mr. IMuNDT. I have one other question. Miss Bentley. I think — I
take it you are no longer a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. MuNDT. When did you quit the party, and why ?
Miss Bentley. I actually stopped paying dues to the party in July
of 1944, but it took me about a year to more or less get it out of my
system and get to the point where I could get in the frame of mind
of going to the authorities about it. As to' why: Having worked
with Mr. Golos, whom I took to be a great idealist, a man who was
working for what I considered to be the betterment of the world, I
had been terrifically shielded from the realities behind this thing,
and when he died I was thrown in direct contact with Kussians who
had just come over from Eussia — at least as I understand it.
They thought that I was much more sophisticated than I was.
They thought that I knew what was going on, and unfortunately
they landed on me with both feet, made no bones of the fact that they
had contempt for American Communists with their vague idealism,
no bones of the fact that they were using the American Communist
Party as a recruitment for espionage, and, in general, they were about
the cheapest type of person I have ever seen — the gangster type.
Added to which I had never known anyone high up in the American
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 541
party before. But at Mr. Golos' death, I was thrown in contact with
BroM'der. Up to then, I had greatly admired Browder. I was like a
lot of people in the American Communist Party, revered him as a
wonderful leader and all, and it was quite a shock to find that when
I went to him for help, because I did not like this set-up, and I began
to realize what it was, and I wanted his help in getting the people
that I was taking care of out of it, he hemmed and hawed, and rather
pretended to take my side, I think, probably to protect himself. I
think he did not like getting mixed up in espionage, and finally
Moscow pulled the strings, and he just fell out from underneath me
and told me that there was nothing that he could do. He made it
painfully obvious just what was going on.
JNIr. MuNDT. Shortly after that it was that you quit paying the
dues ?
Miss Bentley. I immediately quit paying my dues. Then came
the period of wanting to know what to do about it. Then came the
period in trying to see if I could get any of these people out without
endangering m.yself. There came the period of trying to see what
could be done there, and then I finally realized that I was one person
fighting a vast machine. There was nothing I could do. I could
eitlier walk out and forget it had happened, or I could go to the
agency that was handling counterespionaire, the FBI, and it took me
quite a while to make the decision, and I finally walked in there.
Mr. MuxDT. You went to the FBI, then, about 1945 ?
Miss Bentley. August 1945 ; yes.
Mr. MuxDT. With this information?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. What were you doing during the year after you quit —
during that interim?
Miss Bextley. I continued with the Russians until I had handed
over the contact or else had taken — in other words, had settled up
the contact. Either I had told the Russians they were no good, and
there Avas no use continuing or had turned them over, but I was still
in contact witli the Russians. They wanted to put me on ice for 6
months or a year. They said that Golos had conducted his activities
so badly that there were leaks here and there, and that I was in
dangerous position, so would I kindly go out of circulation as far
as those activities were concerned for 6 months or a year. Then,
they proposed to set me up in another little organization, either in
a travel business or what not, in some large town, and they would give
me other Government contacts to take over.
Mr. Mundt. Who do you mean "they" ?
Miss Bextley. The Russians.
Mr. Mundt. Can you name those Russians ?
Miss Bextley. The only Russian whose real name I know was the
first secretary of the Russian Embassy, and I did ^ot know that until
much later on after I had ceased seeing him.
Mr. MuxDT. He talked with you personally in trying to induce
you to continue this espionage?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; because after they had tried to bribe me, and
had tried all sorts of tricks on me, they finally brought in their highest
man to see what he could do.
Mr. Mundt. What was this man's name?
Miss Bentley. Anatol Gromov.
542 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. Where would lie contact you ?
Miss Bentley. Well, about half the time I saw him in Washing-'
ton, the other half of the time he came to New York.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you see him in the Russian Embassy here ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Where would you see him ?
Miss Bentley. In inconspicuous places. I met him at Herzog's,
down on the waterfront here.
Mr. McDowell. That is a restaurant ; is it not ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I met him in a drug store on M Street and
Wisconsin in Georgetown. I met him in a movie house on Broadway
at about Broadway and One Hundred and Third Street — various spots.
Mr. MuNDT. What have you been doing since 1945 ?
Have you been employed since, during the period of the last 3
years ?
Miss Bentley. I was asked to continue on with tlie U. S. Service
and Shipping Corp., because it was feared that that possibly might
be a danger spot, a covering-up agency, and I was asked to continue
on in there until either something happened or the business broke
its contract and liquidated itself, which it proceeded to do in Feb-
1 uary of 1946.
Mr. MuNDT. Were you asked by the FBI ?
Miss Bentley. 1947. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. And from 1946 on, what have you been doing?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry ; 1947.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you had any employment since then ?
Miss Bentley. No; I walked out of the whole thing and, of course,
could not use any business contacts I had made, so I went into an
employment agency and got myself a position as a secretary.
Mr. Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have only one or two questions.
You feel that the American Communists have been made suckers
of by the Russians ?
Miss Bentley. With the exception of that small group of people
who actually run the American Party, I would say that the vast
majority of the rank-and-file people in the Communist Party are;
yes.
Mr. McDowell. Suckers?
Miss Bentley. Right.
Mr. McDowell. Don't you think, perhaps, that some Of America's
leading Communists are leading the Communist cause because it pays
them to do that? They get pietty good salaries. I noticed you re-
ferred awhile ago to Earl Browder going to a sunnner home. These
people are proletariat and are not supposed to have summer homes.
Miss Bentley. Well, he also had a car with a private chauffeur.
Mr. McDowell. Struggling for the working class.
Miss Bentley. That is right. I think it is partly that money; I
think for a lot of them — and I think it applies particularly to Brow-
der— they have a particular lust for jiower. I mean they are show-
offs; they love to feel that sense of power that they have.
Mr. McDowell. I hope all the foggy-minded liberals in America
who are i)laying with this thing read this evidence.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 543
I liave no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin ^
Mr. Raxkin. What year did you say vou quit the Communist
Party ^
Miss Bentley. I stopped paying dues in July of 1944.
Mr. Rankin. You said that you did not get any satisfaction out
of Earl Browder at that time?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankin. It was the next year, was it not, that you understand
that Duclos, the leader of the Comintern in Paris, wrote the letter
removing Earl Browder and putting William Z. Foster in his place?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I think that was in May of 1945. I am not
too sure of the date on it, but it was some time along in there. I think
he was actually deposed in July of 1945. I think the final session that
put him out was in July of 1945.
Mr. Rankin. I wonder if that had any bearing on his reluctance
to talk with you at that time ? Did he know that this change would
happen?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't believe so. because that was almost a
year previous to that. I rather doubt it.
jVIr. Rankin. You say that the majoiity of the Communists in this
country were born in foreign countries ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not, because I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Rankin. Well, a great leader testified before this committee
the other day — a short time ago — Mr. Bullitt, that 60 percent of the
members of the Communist Party in this country were foreign born.
Would you say that that estimate is too large?
Miss Bentley. Frankly. Mr. Congressman, I do not know, because
I was not too closely connected with the top of the party that would
count tliose statistics. I do not actually know that.
Mr. Rankin. You knew the Communist Party was dedicated to the
destruction of this Government, did you not?
Miss Bentley. I did not at the time I was in it. That was one of
the reasons I got out.
Mr. Rankin. When you found that out, you quit. Yoti learned that
the Communist Party was plotting the overthrow of this Government?
Miss Bentley. I would say that was correct; yes.
Mr. Rankin. And that that was one of the chief planks — we will
say of the platform — or one of the chief elements in their program?
Miss Bentley. I don't know if it is in their open program, but it
certainly is in their basic secret program ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. I am not talking about the open program, because
we do not get that, you understand. Now, you knew also that it was
dedicated to the destruction of what they called the capitalistic sys-
tem— that is, the right to own private property ?
Miss Bentley. That would be correct, yes.
Mr. Rankin. You learned that in Russia they have taken over the
land and that private enterprise has been reduced and that the people
of Russia have been reduced to the status of slaves. You found that
out before you quit them ; is tliat true ?
Miss Bentley. I do not know that I exactly found it out; but judg-
ing by the Russians with whom I dealt, it would be extremely plausi-
ble ; yes.
544 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Rankin. You know it now, do you not?
Miss Bentley, I certainly do.
Mr. Rankin. You know now that every Russian farmer is a slave
of some commissar?
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. He is told where he shall live, what kind of work he
shall do, and whether or not he shall move. That is correct, is it
not?
Miss Bentley, Yes
Mr. Rankin. In other words, it is nothing but a system of abject
slavery, dominated by a racial minority that has seized control, as
members of the Politburo ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley, I am not clear about the racial minority,
Mr. Rankin, I am. Now, I do not know how far I am to go ; but
as a creative member of this committee, I want to ask you about this
man William W. Remington. You say he was a Communist?
The Chairman. That question is overruled. The committee has
decided that the Remington testimony will not be brought up at this
time, in deference to the Senate committee.
Mr, Rankin. The Chair has no right to block the investigation of
this man who is in this key position.
The Chairman, I am not blocking any investigations, and you
know how to overrule the Chair if you want to overrule the Chair,
and all you have to do is make a motion,
Mr. Rankin. I want to call attention to that man as being a director
of export program, of the staff of the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic
Commerce. If he is in this key position and is a Communist, belong-
ing to an organization dedicated to the overthrow of this Government,
it is the duty of this committee to investigate that.
The Chairman, Do not think for a moment that we have not inves-
tigated it. We have investigated this man Remington thoroughly.
The only thing that is embarrassing to me is that Remington comes
from my district.
Mr, Rankin, I was afraid of that.
The Chairman. Then we will bring out the Remington testimony
and bring it out right here, because we are not going to have a charge
against me about covering it up.
Mr. Rankin. Then I will bring out the Remin^on testimony.
Mr. McDowell. I object ; and I believe the majority of the mem-
bers object, in deference to a Senate committee.
The Chairman. I do not want Mr. Rankin or anybody else to make
any kind of a remark, or intimate that the reason that we are not
bringing out Remington is that because he comes from my congres-
sional district we are covei'ing him up.
Mr. Rankin. I did not say that.
The Chairman. Well, you came pretty close to saying that.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think that anybody who knows your
record in the Un-American Activities Committee is not going to assume
even such a charge, and I think your ruling is perfectly sound ; but to
make it emphatic, I move that it be the sense of this committee that
we do not discuss the Remington case — the Remington testimony —
at this time, by virtue of the fact that the Senate is presently engaged
in such investigation.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 545
Mr. McDowell. I second the motion.
Mr. Hebekt. I want to be heard on the motion. It was my under-
standing, wlien I suggested that the Remington employment file be
put in at this time, that the Remington matter would be treated in the
same way in which the names of every other person mentioned here
this morning would be treated, and that is still my understanding. If
it is the purpose of Mr. INIundt to move that this witness cannot be
asked concerning Remington, then, of course, I cannot support the
motion.
Mr. jMi^NDT. I said "at this time."
]Mr. Hebert. In other words, with all due deference to the Senate,
and the knowledge that they have Mr. Remington before them, I think
we have possession of this witness at this time; and if she has any
knowledge of Remington to submit, or John Brown, or Jones or
Smith, or anybody else, she should be permitted to answer questions
concerning that.
The CHAiRaiAN. Let me ask this question of the committee : When
will it be possible for the committee to sit and hear Remington as a
witness ?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I will be glad any time after we get
through investigating to see whether or not Mr. Remington is a Com-
munist,'and if so, if he is still on the pay roll of the Federal Govern-
ment and in the key position where he can render great injury to the
American Government; then if he wants to come and testify, all
right. But I think, and I know, that I am not for digging a storm
cellar for Remington at this point.
The CHAiR:\rAN. I get word that Remington is informed by the
Senate committee that he will be recalled for testimony before that
committee on Monday. Is it agreeable to the committee members to
have Remington here on Tuesday ?
Mr. Rankin. I want to hear this witness before we hear Remington.
Mr. Hebert. The fact that Mr. Remington is to appear before us
does not have any bearing on the present situation, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes; it has. Not only Remington, but all these
other names that were mentioned are such that it is a question of
association. You will find that these people were not only asso-
ciating but they were associating with others that we have had men-
tioned— that this committee has mentioned from time to time; and
before we get through we will find that these others, and these people,
are all in the same category. They have all been active in espionage ;
and some of them about whom we are going to have the public hear-
ings were active unknowingly, we will say, or innocent, but they
have been active, and they have been guilty of association.
Mr. Hebert. I agree with that; but the point I make, Mr. Chair-
man, is that we cannot question Remington or probe into Remington's
activities as to what this witness knows of her association with Rem-
ington unless we have this witness place into the record at this point
what her association with Remington is.
The Chairman. All right ; we will recess for 10 minutes, and the
committee will go into executive session.
(Whereupon, the committee retired into executive session, after
which the following was had in open session :)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
80408—48 4
546 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kankin. Mr. Chairman, I was questioning the witness awhile
ago when the meeting broke up.
The Chairman. I believe, Mr. Kankin, there was a motion. Will
you repeat your motion, Mr. Mundt ?
Mr. Mundt. My motion was, Mr. Chairman, that the committee
do not go into the Remington case at this time because the Senate is
now exploring that case.
Mr. McDowell. I second the motion.
Mr. Rankin. I want to be heard on the motion.
The Chairman. You have heard the motion duly seconded. Is
there any discussion? Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. Yes; I want to be heard. The witness testifying has
information which she has presented to the committee which is very
alarming. I never saw her before, but the testimony that she is
giving here has been most astounding. She has information, I under-
stand, that this man Remington is a Communist. He is now in the
Bureau of Foreign- and Domestic Commerce, Director of the export
program staff. I don't know how many people he has under him.
All I want to do is to ask the witness some questions about this man
Remington's being a Communist, wdiat she knows about his being a
Communist, and to bring out the same facts with reference to him
that you have brought out with reference to this man Currie, who
used to be one of the assistants in the White House, and these other
individuals. I want to try to get that infornuition.
To try to block this investigation at this time, when this may be
the only opportunity that we may have to question this witness, is
certainly back-pedaling so far as the record of this committee is con-
cerned. Her testimony has shown an interlocking with the Commu-
nist International of people on the Federal pay roll. Some of them
are in key positions and evidently in sympathy with their program
to wreck this Government. To say that you are going to refuse to
investigate — in the vague hope that a Senate committee will do your
work for you — to me, that is pathetic.
During all the years that the Dies committee and this Committee on
Un-American Activities have been investigating and exposing these
Reds, this is the first time so far as I know that any investigation has
been made by a Senate committee, and so far as I am concerned, I am
going to vote against the motion. To try to close the lips of this wit-
]iess on this man Remington, and to ])revent the members of this com-
mittee from asking questions about him and his afliliation with the
Communist Party — if he is in the position that she has described these
other Communists, he is dangerous, I mean, if he has the same attitude
that they had, and then he is dangerous to the welfare of the Govern-
ment and ought to be removed.
I am not wnlling to abdicate my prerogatives to make these investi-
gations merely because the Senate committee proposes to make a simi-
lar investigation, seeing that they have gone on all these years without
taking such a step.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going to vote against the motion. I
only regret that all the othei- minority members are not here to join us.
The Chairman. Are there any other remarks?
Mr. Rankin. I am waiting for a ruling of the committee. If you
want to whitewash this man or dig him a storm cellar, I think it is an
outrage, and I will take it before the House at the proper time.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 547
The CiiAiKMAX. Does any other member desire to be heard?
Mr. McDowell. I desire to be lieard. With all due respect to the
gentleman from Mississippi, I think he has entirely misinterpreted
the motion and the desire behind the motion. There is no intent, so
far as I am concerned, or I doubt that the other members of the com-
mittee have any — there is no eifort at all to whitewash any person or
TO dig a storm cellar for any person. So far as I am concerned — and
I shall vote for the motion — this man is not a constituent of mine.
If he was, it would not make any difference. If he is a Communist,
I think he ouglit to be removed from the Government, but in defer-
ence to the operation now going on on the other side of the Capitol,
and in tlie other body, I feel that the best interest of good government
would be served by merely postponing for a day or two or a few hours,
if necessary, the investigation into the person whose name has been
under discussion.
I shall vote for the motion.
Mr. IIankix. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankiist. Does the gentleman propose that this witness who
has come down for this purpose, going to this committee, does he
propose to sunmion her back to answer the questions that she can
answer in o minutes now ?
Mr. INIcDowELL. Mr. Chairman, I feel, in view of the high impor-
tance of this witness, that she is liable to be available to this commit-
tee or any* other congressional committee for quite a long time, and
that calling her back would cause her to suffer no inconvenience or
hardship or be any lack of good proper government.
Mr. Rankin. It certainly would be a hardship on the committee
to have to come back for this one thing which can be settled in 3
minutes.
The Chairman. Is there anything more to be said on the motion ?
Mr. McDowell. Question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All those in favor of the motion will signify by
answering "aye" when their names are called.
Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mi NOT. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No.
The Chairman. The vote is 3 to 2, and the motion is carried.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I think we should apologize to the
lady, then, for bringing her down here and wasting her time at this
time.
The Chairman. If it will make you feel any better, Mr. Rankin, I
would be very ])leased to express my regrets to the lady for not being
al>le to answer nil of the questions that you propounded here.
Mr. Rankin. You do not have to apologize to her. She can answer
it if you let her.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions ?
548 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
_ Mr. Eankin. No; if I am g'oing to be dictated to as to wliat ques-
tions I shall ask about these Communists who are here trying to under-
mine the Government, I submit the committee might as well adjourn.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, you and I have served on this com-
mittee for a long time. We have had our disagreements, and we have
agreed on many things. You know, Mr. Rankin, well down deep
in your heart that this committee is not going to whitewash anybody
or anything, and you also know that this committee has done a very
big job — a very big job — and especially a big job in the last 2 years.
We have been unearthing your New Dealers for 2 years, and for 8
years before that.
Mr. Rankin. I know the Senate is busy now nagging the white
people of the South, and all of the FEPC, and all this communistic
bunk.
The Chairman. Have you any questions that you want to ask this
witness ?
Mr. Rankin. Not unless I am able to ask her the questions that I
want to.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, I would like to pursue further the
questions that Mr. Mundt propounded in connection with the wit-
ness' activities in joining the Communist Party.
Were you persuaded to join the Communist Party by members of
the party ?
Miss Bentlet. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What arguments did they use with you in persuading
you to join? Let me interrupt you and tell you the reason for that
question. Tlie reason is this : I believe that the best method of pro-
cedure is that an ounce of prevention is wortli a pound of cure. Tliis
committee has been trying to find out what makes the Communists tick,
and why they are spreading, as they are spreading. It is my belief
that education — we know what appeals the Communists are making
to native-born Americans like yourself well able to combat the evil.
That is the reason I ask you the question: What persuaded you, a
native-born American, an American citizen, a highly educated Amer-
ican citizen, who should have known better, educated in the schools
that you were educated in, what persuaded you join up with the Com-
munists ?
Miss Bentlet. It is so long ago that I am trying very hard to
remember the arguments that they did put to me at that time. They
were the same arguments, I think, that they put to almost any liberal
who is dissatisfied with various conditions in this country which, of
course, exist, and there is no denying them.
Their final argument was, "If you feel like a liberal, and if you feel
that these conditions are bad, then you should ally yourself with the
group that will be strong and disciplined and intelligent and that
could really do something about these conditions.'"
As for whether it was American or not, they represented themselves
to be an American party.
Mr. Hebert. How did they propose to overcome — to impose their
system on the American people, without the overthrow of the American
form of government?
Miss Bentlet. That was not mentioned at all in those days, possibly
because that was during Earl Browder's regime, at which point you
will remember they did not come out in the open with any revolutionary
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 549
inogiani. We were told that the only solution was education, that
people must be taught, so that we would finally get a majority of
American people to vote that particular regime into power.
JMr. Hebijrt. You mentioned that you were very much exercised
about the growth of fascism?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I was.
Air. Hebert. What is your distinction between a dictatorship of
fascism and a dictatorship of communism?
Miss Ijextley. I see very little difference right now.
Mr. Hebert. Why did j-ou go to communism, when you now call it
fascism ?
Miss Bextley. Because that was not the way communism was repre-
sented to me.
Mr. Hebert. Then it was purely an idealistic appeal to you ?
Miss Bextley. That is right. I was told that the Communist Party
was a democratic party, that everyone was democratically elected from
the bottom up, from the smallest units to the section and the top.
Mr. Hebert. And these clandestine meetings, and secret maneuvers,
did they appeal to you as something democratic, something in the
open ?
]Miss Bextley. No ; but you must remember that I had lived a year
in Italy, under a Fascist government, where almost everyone sneaked
around corners and whispered in everybody else's ears.
Mr. Hebert. But you had lived long enough in America, and you
had been educated in American schools?
Miss Bex^tley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Hebert. And that education had so little influence on you?
Miss Bextley. I knew so little about American Government, and I
was so very little schooled as to the American Government.
Mr. Hebert. You say 3'ou knew verj' little about the American
Government ?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Did they not have courses in Columbia ?
Miss Bextley. No ; they did not teach it.
Mr. Hebert. What was your elementary education?
Miss Bextley. The same as anybody else's, but I changed schools
so often due to the fact that my family moved, that I seemed to avoid
American history and civics courses.
Mr. Hebert. So you grew up as a typical J^oung woman, an Ameri-
can child in American schools, went to a very renowned institution,
Vassar. and went to another famous institution, Columbia, and
through all those years, you were never exposed, or put in contact with
what American history was, what America stands for, and what our
form of government was ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I never was.
Mr. Hebert. That is what I am trying to find out — where our fault
is in the system of education.
Miss Bextley. I think it is the fault that runs straight through it
because there are numerous people like myself who have been brought
up like myself, who have not the slightest comprehension of what
America is really like, nor what it means to live in a democratic coun-
try under a democratic system.
550 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. I tliink that is a great contribution which yon have
made there in that statement, and that is exactl}^ ^Yhat I am trying to
arrive at.
Now, let me ask you one other question. In this desire of yours to
live the idealistic life and bring a better world about, did it ever
appeal to you, with your intelligence, with your education, even
though not educated in the Ameiican form of government or the
democratic form of government, did it ever appeal to you that you
were doing something wrong Avhen you were meeting people and
handing them secret information during the war?
Miss Bentley. No; it did not.
Mr. Hebert. That never appealed to you?
Miss Bkxtley. Not until I discovered what sort of a thing I was
jnixed up in.
Mr. Hebert. How old were you when you started this maneuvering,
this espionage?
Miss Bentley. That was about 7 years ago.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you were above 21 — I will not ask yon for your
exact age — but I want to know whether or not you were a mature
individual.
Miss Bentley. I think you may be physically mature, but many
times you are not mentally matui'e.
Mr. Hebert. I do not think that Columbia or Vassar would like
that for their graduates to say that they were not mentally mature
after their graduation, do you?
Miss Bentley. It might be correct in a number of cases.
Mr. Hebert. And it never did come to you or dawn upon you that
you were going to these secret meetings, and this super-duper secret
stuff that you engaged in, that you were performing a disservice to
your Government ?
Miss Bentley. No; I w^as thoroughly sold on the conviction that
no matter what happened in my lifetime I was building a decent world
in the future.
Mr. Hebert. Even if it was betraying your own Government in
time of war?
Miss Bentley. I did not think it was betraying my own Govern-
ment.
Mr. Hebert. Wliat did you think these people wanted this infor-
mation for about our Air Force ? Did it not occur to you as a normal
individual, with more than normal education, that Russia was sup-
posedly our ally in this war, and they did not have to resort to these
means to get secret information ?
Miss Bentley. It never occurred to me that way because I think the
mistake you make when you look at communism is that you take it as
an intellectual process. It is not. It is almost a religion and it gets
you so strongly that you take orders blindly. You believe it blindly.
That accounts for the fact that no real Communist is religious, nor
has any religion.
Mr. Hebert. You say "you" take it. You do not mean to infer that
the members of this committee take it that way. We recognize it
for what it is, and that is what we are trying to combat. We do
believe it is a religion, and a godless religion.
Miss Bentley. That is correct, but in the process 3'our intellectual
faculties cease to function in a critical sense.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 551
Mr. PIebert. But would yoii say that these confused liberals, as you
describe them, lack the mentality to arrive at a logical conclusion?
Miss Bentley. No; I would say they have that mentality, but that
that mentality has been dulled by this emotional process.
Mr. Hebert. Who spurred tliis emotionalism on you? Was it this
man Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Was it that you were devoted to him so much that you
followed him blindly and were blind to everything else?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. So, then, it was an individual case of a personal devo-
tion that swayed you ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Hebert. And blinded you to your traitorous acts against your
own country?
jMiss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. I do not want to see you get too far out on a limb on
this education proposition. But almost every high educational insti-
tution— every institution of higher learning in this country — ^lias a
Communist professor on its pay roll, and they are poisoning the minds
of the students of this Nation today, so I am not sure that it is purely
a question of education. I noticed that some of the smartest ones we
have seen, and some of those — this Professor Adler, whose name I
tried to bring out this morning — going around and preaching that we
must get rid of the United States.
Mr. Hebert. I am not getting out on a limb. I am nailing the limb
firmly to the tree.
Mr. Rankin. What I am trying to say is that we have a world of
Communist professors in our educational system, and they are poison-
ing the minds of the young students of this country.
Mr. Hebert, That is absolutely correct, and I want to find out where
this education starts. It is to our own indictment that in our elemen-
tary schools we do not take the child up and teach the child what
Americanism is, and when he otows up and gets to a school of higher
learning, such as Vassar or Columbia — and I think General Eisen-
hower has a big thing to do to clean that place up
Mr. Rankin. Do you see where the Communists have established a
scholarship there ?
Mr. Hebert. That is criminal. I think as Americans who are in-
terested in this, without any fanfare or fireworks or anything, to get
down to the meat of the coconut, I think it is incumbent upon us right
at this time as far as we can as individuals in our own individual
community, that we should start during the week end to take our
children from the time that they can speak to show them what Amer-
icanism is, and what it stands for, and I was vevy much interested to
find this out from this Avitness today, that she was so devoid of knowl-
edge as to what her country meant to her that she was ready to commit
acts of treason against her country in time of war. She says she did
it under the guise of devotion. I will take her word for that, but I
cannot conceive in my own mind of any witness or any individual or
any person with the educational background of this witness not know-
ing right from wrong.
Mr. Rankin. Not even Remington.
[Laughter.]
552 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairmatst. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you have testified that you
Mr. Hebert. May I interruj^t one second to bring this to the atten-
tion of the committee, which I am sure the chairman will be inter-
ested in. That is this very fine pamphlet prepared by the chief in-
vestigator, which is the first of a series and which shows what I mean,
the 100 Questions of communism,^ which is being distributed to the
New Orleans public and parochial schools by the archbishop of New
Orleans, and the superintendent of public schools in New Orleans, so
that the children will immediately be cognizant of what communism is,
and they will know the evil forces at work. And I may say this, too,
in connection with our higher schools of learning : I am from Tulane,
and to my chagrin there are more Communists who infest that place
than Americans. There is one man named Franklin, in that connec-
tion, Mr. Mundt — one man named Franklin who taught the Comnnmist
line to the students of Tulane University, and who is now on leave
from that university on an appointment to the United Nations, and I
cannot find out who put him there,
Mr. Rankin. When you say the university, you mean the professors.
Mr. Hebert. The professors.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you testified that among those with whom
you had some dealings during the period that you were working with
this ring was one Lauchlin Currie, who was in tlie White House, on the
White House staff, at that time, I believe?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do I understand that you met Mr. Currie personally?
Miss Bentley, No ; I did not.
Mr. Nixon, What connection did you have with him ?
Miss Bentley. The information that he gave was generally given
to George Silverman who relayed that to Mr. Silvermaster or Mr. Ull-
mann or Mrs. Silvermaster, and I picked it up when I went to the
Silvermaster house,
Mr, Nixon. How did Silverman get it; did he get it directly from
Mr, Currie?
Miss Bentley, Yes; I understand that they went to Harvard to-
gether, and were great friends.
Mr, Nixon. Was Mr. Silverman connected with Mr. Currie the same
way ? Did they work in the same office ?
Miss Bentley. No; I do not believe so. Mr. Silverman was first
with the Railroad Retirement Board, and later with the Air Corps, so
I do not see how there could be a job connection,
Mr, Nixon, How did you know that Mr. Currie gave this informa-
tion to Mr. Silverman?
Miss Bentley, Because I was told that by Mr, Silvermaster and Mr.
Ullmann.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And the information that was received from Mr.
Currie via Mr. Silverman was taken by you and turned over to the
Russian agents?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon, That is correct. As to any specific information that was
obtained in this manner, is it my understanding that you testified that
^"100 Things You Should Know About Communism in the U. S. A.," pamphlet issued by
the Committee on Un-American Activities. June 1948.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 553
the information concerning the breaking of the Russian code was ob-
tained through Mr. Ciirrie?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
]\lr, Nixon. How do yon know that?
Miss Bentley. Well, Mr. Silverniaster told me that one day Mr.
Currie came dashing into Mr. Silverman's house, sort of out of breath,
and told him that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the
Soviet code. Mr. Silverman, of course, got immediately — in due
course, got in touch with Mr. Silvermaster.
Mr. Nixon. And Mr. Silvermaster conveyed that information to
you?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. NisoN. Was there any other information, specific information,
that you know of that was obtained through Mr. Currie?
ISIiss Bentley. Yes ; some of the information on our relations with
China — I mean whether this Government would support Chiang Kai-
shek, or the Eighth Eoute xlrmy people. His value also lay, as I said,
in helping Mr. Silvermaster into his job and easing him out of his job,
and so on. He was sort of a friend of court.
Mr. Nixon. He was a friend at court in seeing that the members of
the ring obtained positions in Government where they could be produc-
tive. As you indicated.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Currie was the man who the .members of the ring
went to see in the event they were attempting to get a transfer to a
productive agency ?
Miss Bentley. He was one of the people ; yes.
INIr. Nixon. Where there others who assisted in that particular
thing?
Miss Bentley. I do not know who those other people were. They
were upper people. Mr. White, of course, helped get people into place*
and som.e of the others.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know whether Mr. Niles participated in that
activity or not ?
Miss Bentley. Not to my knowledge. I know next to nothing
about Mr. Niles.
Mr. Nixon. When you obtained this information, as you have in-
dicated you have from various people who were in the ring, who at that
time were employed in the Government in responsible positions, did
they know that you were going to take this information and turn it
over to the Soviet agents?
Miss Bentley. Some did; some did not.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, those who did not know, why did they give
you the information % Why did they think they were giving to it you ?
For what purpose?
Miss Bentley. That is a question I do not know the answer to. I
know that both the Silvermasters and Ullmann knew exactly where
it was going. From what they said, Mr. White knew where it was
going but preferred not to mention the fact. They were undecided
as to whether Mr. Currie knew or not. but they suspected that he did.
Others of them, I am not sure about. Some of them may have thought
it was going to the Communist Party headquarters for use by Earl
Browder, or others may have guessed" the truth. It just was not dis-
cussed, and, therefore, I cannot give you the answer.
554 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixox. You mean that some of these people might liave given
this information for the purpose or what they thought was the purpose
of merely aiding the Communist Party in the United States ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct, yes ; that was esi)ecially true of the
individuals that I contacted, because they were told by Mr. Golos
that this information was for the personal use of Earl Browder in pre-
paring books and in preparing policies of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. And then, as a matter of fact, once Mr. Browder ob-
tained the information, or once you obtained the information, how-
ever, it was turned over directly to the Soviet agents ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Nixon. So, we have a situation then where those who furnished
the information might not have been aware
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Of the fact that it was going to a Soviet agent in every
case ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. At the time that these events were occurring, that you
were in this particular activity, the Russians at that time were allies of
the United States ; were they not ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Those people who clid know, as you testified some did
know, that this information was going
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. To the Soviet agents, as far as they were coricerned, did
they realize that by giving that information, making that information
available to the Russians, it was not in the best interests of the United
States?
Miss Bentley. I would say that their point of view was roughl}' the
fact that as Communists they were interested in Russia because Rus-
sia already had a Communist government. They wished for a Com-
munist government in this country. Therefore, they felt that it was
their duty to aid a country vshich had a Communist govermnent. They
also felt that Russia was bearing the brunt of the war — you remember,
the Germans drove straight through — that she was inadequately^ pre-
pared, and they told me that in the course of their dealings with the
American Government they felt that thei'e were elements in the Ameri-
can Government who were blocking aid in Russia at the time when they
felt it was absolutely necessary for her survival.
Mr. Nixon. Were they aware of the fact that by furnishing this in-
formation to Russia they were violating the laws of the United States?
Miss Bentley. I would think so, because I imagine most of them —
hadn't they signed affidavits or something when they took these secret
jobs that said 3'OU should not give out that information?
Mr. Nixon. In other words, as far as these people were concerned,
they were placing the interests, during the war — they were placing the
interests of the Soviet Government above that of their own Govern-
ment ?
Miss Bentley. I would say that was correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. And when they furnished this information, they knew
that they were doing something which was not in the best interests of
the Govermnent of the United States as it then existed, and as they
w^orked for it.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 555
Miss Bextley. I hardly know how to answer that, because they felt
they were acting in the best interests of the American Government ;
that is to say, the elements which they approved of.
]Mr. Nixon. I see.
Miss Bentley. But they felt that they were acting against the ele-
ments who were anti-Russian, so it is hard to break the thing down.
Mr. Nixon. They knew they were not acting in the best interests of
the non-Communist American Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
IVIr. Nixon. And they would act in the best interests of the American
Government where they felt that that Government was serving com-
munistic purposes; isn't that the case?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Nixon. And wherever the interests of this Government came
in conflict with the Communist Government, in effect, they would be
willing to do anything for the purpose of aiding Communist Govern-
ment where its interests conflicted with those of the non-Communist
American Government ?
Miss Bentley. I would imagine so, up to a point. It would de-
pend. I don't know how far these people would have gone.
Mr. Nixon. Well, certainly, they were willing to erigage in this type
of activity that you have indicated.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Of violating their oath of office, and obtaining secret
documents.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And seeing to it that it got into the hands of a foreign
government.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, were you aware of the fact when you de-
cided to turn this information over to the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation that you ran a considerable personal risk in doing so?
Miss Bentley. Yes: I was quite aware of it. I also realized that
there would be a considerable mud-slinging campaign from the left,
which was also unpleasant.
]\Ir. Nixon. Were you awai-e of the fact that in'addition to the mud
slinging you might run a risk greater than that?
Miss Bentley. Yes;T knew that.
Mr. Nixon. And you were willing to take that risk in doing so?
Miss Bentley. Certainly, because I felt that since I had been mixed
up in this thing it was my duty to unscramble it, so to speak.
Mr. Nixon. And that is the reason that you did turn this informa-
tion over to our investigative authorities?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would
like to say — well, I have just one other question.
How long have you been working with the investigative authorities
of our Government ?
Miss Bentley. Since I went in to see them.
Mr. Nixon. And when was that ?
Miss Bentley. The latter part of August 1945.
Mr. Nixon. In other worcls, the investigative authorities of this
country have been aware of this testimony that you have given to
us today since August of 1945?
556 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, possibly later, because there was so miicli of
it that had to be taken down and gone over, so I would set the final
date a bit further than that.
Mr. Nixon. About how much later?
Miss Bentley, I do not know exactly.
Mr. Nixon. Well, say 3 months?
Miss Bentley. Three or four months, yes, because all of it had to
be taken down in great detail and had to be gone into.
Mr. NixoN. Well, at least, by February of 194G, which would be
4 months :
Miss Bentley. I should think so.
Mr. Nixon (continuing). The investigative agencies of this coun-
try, the Department of Justice, were fully aware of all this testimony
that you have given to us today.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And it was in the files of the Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, it is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman,
that this information has been available as to these Government em-
ployees for a period of almost 2 years.
Mr. MuNDT. It is also quite apparent that we need a new Attorney
General.
Mr. Rankin. Does that apply to Remington, too? [Laughter.]
Mr. Nixon. Well, from that standpoint, Mr. Remington is still
on the Government pay roll. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman,
that I have no further questions.
I think that, although obviously we would be critical of any person
who would, of course, indulge in the type of activities which the people
involved in this ring did indulge in — that certainly this witness de-
serves the commendation of the members of the committee and, I think,
of the American public generally for the courage which she has dis-
played once she saw what was happeniiftg in coming to the investigative
agencies of this country and now in open session and telling her story.
I think that those of us who have been dealing in this field with
Communist espionage, and who know the ends to which the Commu-
nists would go in attempting to see that such information does not
reach the agencies that might prosecute them, certainly know that
she did take a considerable risk, and I certainly believe she deserves
commendation from all of us for having taken that risk.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. You say that you never met Mr. Currie ?
Miss Bentley. Not personally; no.
Mr. Rankin. You never saw him?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr, Rankin. You would not know him if you saw him ?
Miss Bentley. I think I have seen his picture in the papers, but I
do not know if I would recognize him.
Mr. Rankin. Now, this information that came to you through a
man named Silverman
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin (continuing). Was passed on to a man iiiamed Silver-
master.
Miss Bentley. Or Mr, Ullmann, depending on the situation.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 557
]\Ir. Kankix. It came to you third hand?
Miss Bentley. Correct.
Mr. Eankin. Now, Silverman, you say, is a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. And Silvermaster is a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr R \NKiN. And no Communist has any regard for the truth, has
he?
Miss Bentley. Well, it depends on the situation.
Mr. Rankin. That is what I say. They have no regard for the
truth. When it suits tlieir purpose to lie they just as soon lie as tell
the truth; is that not right?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Now, the thing that disturbs me is that you take the
testimony, the statement of two men. Silverman and Silvermaster, re-
layed from one to the other, about what this Scotchman in the White
House, 'Sir. Currie, said about communism.
Did you ever investigate to find out whether or not Silverman or
Silvermaster were telling the truth?
Miss Bentley. Well, for one thing, in espionage rings you cannot
investigate. Thej^ are built up on this particular type of flimsy con-
nection.
Mr. Rankin. Well, here we have gone on all day — here is what is
disturbing me — I would not know Mr. Currie; I am fairly familiar
with the incumbents of the White House and have been for the last
15 or 20 years. I do not know him. I know Mr. Mclntyre and Steve
Early, and all those gentlemen, but the thing that disturbs me is that
here we are voting by a vote of 3 to 2 to keep from inquiring about one
man, and yet we have put this committee — we have put in the whole
day accepting from an ex-Communist, which you admit you are, tes-
timony relayed through two Communists as to wliat this man Currie
in tlie White House is supposed to have said.
Now, that looks to me as if we are going pretty far afield wlien we
take tliat kind of testimony and charge all this up to Mr. Currie.
When I glance over the list I see several that seem to me who would be
more lilcely to have given that information than Currie, who occupied
similar positions. But here we put in a whole day, a whole day,
smearing Currie by remote control through two Communists, either
one of whom you admit would swear to a lie just as soon as he would
swear to the trutli if it suited hisi)urposes, and relayed to you, who at
that time was a member of the Communist Party. We have come in
jiere and put in a whole day with that kind of testimony about a man
wlio liappened to occupy a rather responsible position in the White
House, and yet we shy around and we are denied the opportunity or
the right to ask a question about this man Remington, who is still on
tlie pay roll.
^liss Bentley. Might I say just one thing in that respect? It is
quite true that Communists lie to the outside world. It is not true
tliat they lie within th.e party, particularly to the person whom they
regard as their superior. They do not do that. That was what was
told me by Mr. Silvermaster. I liave every reason to believe that he
Avas telling me the truth. I have no desire to smear anyone. I have
simply told the facts as they were told to me. It is up to the committee
to decide whether or not that is credible or not.
558 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. You certainly have an unlimited credibility. If yoii
would take the word of any Connnunist, Silverman or Silvermaster,
or both of them, and I believe you named another one, whom you re-
layed it through, who was also a Communist, if you take that testi-
mony as to what this man Currie, as I said, a Scotchman, has said
about the Communists — it just looks to me as if we have gone pretty
far afield here to smear this man by remote control, instead of getting
someone who heard him or who knew that he had made any state-
ment.
Now, I am not defending anybody. Every Communist in the
United States ought to be shipped out of this country. Instead of
opening the gates of immigration, they should put them in reverse
and ship out by boatload until we get rid of these Communists in
this country, those should be shipped out. That is how strong I feel
about it. If this man Currie was doing this, he ought to have been
shot, and if he was not, Silverman ought to have been shot, and Silver-
master ought to have been shot. If they were making up this stuff,
if it was to their benefit to smear Currie, they ought to be shot.
The Chairman. We will leave the shooting up to somebody else.
Mr. Rankin. I would like to ask, and I am denied the right to ask
you, one question about Remington.
The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. I have a question. I wonder. Miss Bentley, have you
ever had occasion to read the Communist-control bill which was re-
ported out by the House, and referred to frequently as the Mundt-
Nixon bill, in the newspaper, which was passed by the House?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I studied it quite thorough!}'. I was very much
interested in it.
Mr. MuNDT. From your knowledge of how the Communist espio-
nage activities take place, and how the Communists opei-ate in this
country, do you feel that that would be an effective piece of legislation
if it ultimately wins Senate approval ?
Miss Bentley. I do very definitely because without putting them
underground, it brings them out in the open and makes them stand
up and be counted; and I think that if all propaganda was labeled
where it came from, and people were labeled as to what they are, that
the real face behind the mask would come out in the open, and a lot of
naive dupes who have been taken in by this would certainly not be
taken in any longer.
Mr. MuNDT. And it certainly would not make it more difficult, even
with an Attorney General of the kind that we have now, for a Com-
munist to hold a ])osition with the Federal Government if he recog-
nized that it would be a penitentiary offense?
Miss Bentley. Exactly. I imagine that the Attorney General and
the authorities have been hampered by present regulations on com-
munism, since they must be guided by laws.
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is right. But the thing that disturbs us
in the committee is that the same Attorney General, who says he is
liampered by present legislation, seeks to hinder new legislation that
vould do the job.
Mr. Rankin. If you will get your leader in the United States Sen-
ate to make a motion to discharge a bill from committee and get it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 559
before the Senate for passage, he will get it ready to be passed this
week.
Mr. MuNDT. I will try to do that. He is awfully busy working on
your poll-tax bill. [Laughter.]
The Chairman. ]Mr. Nixon, do you have any more questions?
Mr. Nixon. No.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any more questions?
Mr. McDowell. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman, but I
A^ouid like to say something in view of tlie questions that have been
asked and the position that the witness has been placed in.
It is very familiar to all of us in the committee that intelligent edu-
cation is no bar to being a Communist; that actually thousands of the
leading Communists of America and the world are highly educated
people who, by some means, become Communists.
In your case, it was a matter of your emotions which led you into
this dismal world, and I think the committee should recognize, and
that all Americans should recognize, that when you discovered what
it was, you did the only proper, good, and decent thing that you
could do.
I would like to point out to tlie members of the committee that here
in "Washington and elsewhere in the United States on the pay roll of
the United States are former members of the Communist Party who
discovered their error, and when they got fair jobs, and good jobs,
and decided that that sort of life was comfortable and easy, they slid
out of connnunism, and did nothing to rectify the damage that they
did.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, here is an American
citizen who delved into this business, and now has the courage to walk
tlirough the valle}' of the shadow of publicity that she is doing now,
and I want to commend her, and I think that every member of this
committee will properly join me in that, and I would like to make
this point, Mr. Chairman, that I assume that her subpena will be
extended for perhaps another hearing to be held in the future, and I
would like to point out to all the members of this committee, and all
the members of the staff of this Committee on Un-American Activities,
they know that she has placed herself in a highly dangerous position.
We all know, all of us on the committee, that young women have dis-
appeared from the face of the earth here in the United States because
the Connnunists thought they betrayed the Communist Party.
We know that they murder, they slaughter, and do everything;
and I would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that in your closing re-
marks you order the operators of the committee to be available to her
if she should need them, that the marshals in New York City, or wher-
ever she should be, should be alerted, and the Attorney General, and
the FBI.
Mv. Rankin. I just want to say that I commend the lady very
highly for coming here and giving this information, and one of the
last witnesses that I know of who turned and exposed the Communist
Party before this committee was a Negro. They had taken him to
Moscow to teach him how to do revolutionary w^ork, how to burn ware-
houses, how to blow up dams and essential materials, and he sat in
that witness stand, and I realized that he was going through the same
danger that you are going through now^ I know^ that better than any-
560 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
body else oil the committee, because I get more threats than any other
Member of Congress, and not only did I try to keep the Dies committee
alive, but I created this committee as a standing committee of the
House. It has done more to expose the Communists in this country
than any other agency, or all of the agencies of the Government com-
bined.
I congratulate you on coming and making this statement, regardless
of the errors, and I think you are rather late in seeing the light, but
better late than never, and I commend you on the statements that you
have made, and I am sorry I cannot ask you any questions on Reming-
ton.
The Chairman. I had olie or two questions.
When you had these meetings with the Assistant Secretary of the
Soviet Embassy, in what year were they held ?
Miss Bentley. Well, I met him originally in October 19i4, and the
last time I saw him was late in November 1945.
The Chairmax. How did he contact you?
Miss Bentley. The contact I had at that time arranged for me to
meet him, that I was to meet him at a drug store on ]M Street and Wis-
consin Avenue, and I have forgotten the word we used, but I was to
carry a copy of Time magazine, I think, and he was to come up and
ask me if I was not his old friend Mary, and I was to say, ''Yes," I
believe.
The Chaieman. I mean, how did he contact you so that you would
have the meeting? Was it by telephone?
Miss Bentley. Oh, no ; it was through a contact that I had at that
time, another Russian contact made the engagement.
The Chairman. Do you recall what his name was?
Miss Bentley. I do not know his real name. He was known as
Jack.
The Chairman. Now, you mentioned, and this is one more point that
I have and the only point that I have reference to, you mentioned
that Silverman or Silvermaster, I guess it was, knew about D-day
before anyone else that you had conferred with. Why did you make
a point of that ?
Miss Bentley. I suppose because it just stuck in my mind out of
all the other things.
The Chairman. Well, did he know about D-da}^ many days before
Ol'
Miss Bentley. Yes; it came actually from Mr. Ullmann, not from
Mr. Silvermaster.
The Chairman. And Mr. Ullmann said that Silvermaster knew all
about D-day before?
Miss Bentley. No; Mr. Ullmann was in the Pentagon with the
Air Corps, and through his connections with General Hilldring's
office he had learned the date, and I remember it distinctly because
with that knowledge he was betting with a friend of his when D-day
Avould be and, of course, he won tlie bet, since he knew it ahead of
time.
The Chairman. When you were interrogated by the FBI, did they —
I assume they looked over all of your correspondence and papers, and
iinything that you had?
Miss Bentley. I did not have any papers.
i
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 561
The CiiAiRMAN. Did you have any written contacts at all with
any of these Russians or with any of these Communists?
Miss Bentley. Written contact with the Russians? No.
The Chairman. Did you have any long-distance telephone conver-
sations Avith any of them?
Miss Bentley. With the Russians? No.
The Chairman. Did you have any long-distance telephone con-
versations with Silvermaster?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Helen Silvermaster called me once long dis-
tance in the fall of 19J:1, 1 recall.
The Chairman. She called you from Washington ?
Miss Bentley. She called me from Washington at my home.
The Chairman. Your home? Where was your home then?
Miss Bentley. 58 Barrow Street.
The Chairman. New York City ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you remember any other long-distance tele-
phone calls that you got from any of these people ?
Miss Bentley. I think those were the only ones that I knew of,
yes. That is tlie only one. I might explain that very few of these
people knew my real name and my phone number, so that it would
not have been possible for them to call me, and I never made a prac-
tice of calling people long distance, so that accounts for that fact.
The Chairinian. Does anyone else have any questions?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, the chairman made reference to the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in his interrogating of the witness.
I think that we all recognize that the testimony that we have received
today, of course, would need some corroboration. The only witnesses
that we have indicated as yet that we are going to have are those
that have been named as having participated in the ring. I believe
that the chair could well take under consideration the question of
calling before the committee the Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation to obtain any corroborative evidence that he may have
as to these activities.
The Chairman. I want to say a word about that. The closest rela-
tionship exists between this committee and the FBI. I cannot say
as much as between this committee and the Attorney General's office,
but the closest relationship exists between this committee and the
FBI. I think there is a verv ffood understanding between us. It
is something, however, that we cannot talk too much about. 1 am
quite certain that if they felt that they could give us anything,
without endangering their own position, or in any way endangering
their sources of infoi-mation. they would be glad to cooperate.
Now. I want to say this to the witness before something else : We
appreciate very much your being a witness before this committee,
and we fully realize that you have had a gruelling time of it over the
past years, particularly the past few months. Your ability to stand
up under it in the way you have is certainly something to be proud of.
I thank you very much for coming, and you will remain under our
subpena. however, and ^'•ou should expect to be called back at an
early date.
In the meantime, we shall keep in touch with you, and we would
appreciate it if you would advise Mr. Stripling on how you could be
80408—48 5
562 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
reached at all times, and where you can be reached, and always di-
rectly, through no intermediary.
So, we will probably see you in the near future, and we thank you.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, you mentioned General Hilldring
of the Air Corps.
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know his first name ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I am sorry, I do not, but I believe his name was
in all the papers at the time, and I believe he is a fairly famous in-
dividual.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that we be permitted to put his
full name into the record, if you can ascertain it. We have attempted
to do so at this time.
The Chairman. Whose full name?
Mr. Stripling. General Hilldring. If there was a General Hill-
dring connected with the Air Force during that period, we would like
permission to insert his full name into the record.
The Chairman. Without objection it is so ordered as to putting
the full name in.
(Full name inserted in record: Maj. Gen. Jolm H. Hilldring,
retired 11)46.)
Are there any other questions?
Now, the Chair would also like to announce that the committee
will go into executive session just as soon as possible to determine
who the next witness will be, but from now on, most of the witnesses,
as far as I am concerned, all of the witnesses will be heard in public
hearing, and we will have Silvermaster and your friend Remington,
and many of the other witnesses who were invited today, and they
will all be given an opportunity to be heard, and we will be given
an oppoitunity to question them at length.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I want to comment on what you said
about the FBI. I agree with everything you say about the FBI.
I think Edgar Hoover is one of the great men of this country, but
I do think that the FBI ought to be made an independent agency, and
I have a bill pending in this House for that purpose.
The Chairman. Is there anything more to bring up today by any
member of the committee or Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. Not in open session.
The Chairman. If not, we will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
heaeinCtS regarding communist espionage in
the united states government
TUESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met, pursufint to notice, at 11 a. m., in the hearing
room of the Conmiittee on Ways and Means, New House Office Build-
ing, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. Mundt, John
McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, John E. Rankin, J. Hardin Peterson^
and F. Edward Hebert.
Stall' members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis Russell, William Wheeler, and Donald T. Appell, investigators ;
and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The hearing will come to order. The members present
are Messrs. McDowell, Nixon, Rankin, Peterson. Hebert, and Mundt.
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, is JSIr. Whittaker
Chambers.
Mr. Chambers, will you stand and raise your right hand and be
sworn, please?
Ml'. Mundt. Do you solemnly swear that tlie testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID WHITTAKER CHAMBEES
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir, Chambers, you are here before the committee
in response to a subpena that was served on you j-esterday by Mr..
Stephen W. Birmingham. Is that correct?
Mr. Chambers. I am.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your full name ?
^Ir. Chambers. My name is David Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, will you raise your voice a little^
please ?
What is your present address ?
Mr. Chambers. 9 Rockefeller Plaza.
Mr. Stripling. That is your business address ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Chambers. I am senior editor of Time magazine.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
563;
564 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I was born April 1, 1901, in Philadelphia.
Mr. Striplixg. How long have yon been associated with Time
magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. Nine years.
Mr. Stripling. Prior to that time what was yonr occupation ?
Mr. Chambers. I was a member of the Communist Party and a paid
functionary of the party.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first join the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. 1924.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chambers, people at the press table still feel they
can't hear you. Will you please speak louder?
Mr. Chambers. 1 will speak as loud as I can.
Mr. Stripling. Will you repeat when you joined the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. I joined the Communist Party in 1924.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Chamber. Until 1937.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. In New York City.
Mr. Stripling. When did you disassociate yourself with the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I should like to read a statement if I may.
Mr. Stripling. A statement you have prepared yourself ?
Mr. Chambers. That I have myself prepared.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest the witness be permitted to read this. He
has shown it to me.
Mr. Mundt. I take it the statement you are about to read will
indicate why you did disassociate yourself from the party?
Mr. Chambers. I will try to do so.
Mr. Rankin. And we will be permitted to question him after this
statement ?
Mr. Mundt, Yes, sir.
You will be permitted to read it.
Mr. Chambers. Almost exactly 9 years ago — that is, 2 days after
Hitler and Stalin signed their pact — I went to Washington and re-
ported to the authorities what I knew about the infiltration of the
United States Government by Communists. For years international
communism, of which the United States Communist Party is an
integral part, had been in a state of undeclared war with this Re-
public. With the Hitler-Stalin pact, that war reached a new stage.
I regarded my action in going to the Government as a sim])le act of
war, like the shooting of an armed enemy in combat.
At that moment in history, I was one of the few men on this side of
the battle who could perform this service.
I had joined the Comnuniist Party in 1924. No one recruited me.
I had become convinced that the society in which we live, western
civilization, had reached a crisis, of which the First World War was
the military expression, and that it was doomed to collapse or revert
to barbarism. I did not understand tlie causes of the crisis or know
what to do about it. But I felt that, as an intelligent man, I must do
something. In the writings of Karl Marx I thought that I had found
the explanation of the historical and economic causes. In the writ-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 565
iiigs of Lenin I thought I hiul found the answer to the question, Whtit
to do?
In 10;]T I repudiated Marx' doctrines and Lenin's tactics. Experi-
ence and the record had convinced me that communism is a form of
totalitarianism, that its triumph means shiver}' to men wherever they
fall under its sway, and spiritual nioht to the human mind and sonl.
I resolved to break with the Connnunist Party at whatever risk to my
life or other tragedy to myself or my family. Yet, so strong is the
hold which the insidious evil of communism secures on its disciples,
that I could still say to someone at the time : "I know that I am leaving
the winning side for the losing side, but it is better to die on the losing
side than to live under communism."'
For a year I lived in hiding, sleeping by day and watching through
the night with gun or revolver within easy reach. That was what
imderground commimism could do to one man in the peacefi»i United
States in the year 1938.
I had sound reason for supposing that the Communists might try
to kill nie. For a number of years I had myself served in the under-
ground, chiefly in Washington, D. C. The heart of my report to the
United States Government consisted of a description of the apparatus
to which I was attached. It was an underground organization of the
L^nited States Communist Party deA'eloped, to the best of my knowl-
edge, by Harold Ware, one of the sons of the Communist leader known
as "'Mother Bloor.*' I knew it at its top level, a group of seven or so
men, from among whom in later years certain members of Miss Bent-
ley's organization were apparently recruited. The head of the under-
ground group at the time I knew it was Xathan Witt, an attorney for
the National Labor Relations Board. Later, John Abt became the
leader. Lee Pressman was also a member of this group, as was Alger
Hiss, who, as a member of the State Department, later organized the
conferences at Dumbarton Oaks, San Francisco, and the United States
side of the Yalta Conference.
The purpose of this group at that time was not primarily espionage.
Its original puri)ose was the Communist infiltration of the American
Government. But espionage was certainly one of its eventual objec-
tives. Let no one be surprised at this statement. Disloyalty is a matter
of principle with every member of the Communist Party. The Com-
numist Party exists for the specific purpose of overthrowing the
Government, at the opportune time, by anj^ and all means; and each
of its members, by the fact that he is a member, is dedicated to this
purpose.
It is 10 years since I broke away from the Communist Party. Dur-
ing that decade I have sought to live an industrious and God-fearing
life. At the same time I have fought conmuuiism constantly by act
and written word. I am proud to appear before this committee. The
j.ublicity inseparable from such testimony has darkened, and will no
doubt continue to darken, my effort to integrate myself in the com-
munity of free men. But that is a small i)rice to pay if my testimony
helps to make Americans recognize at last that they are at grips witli
a secret, sinister, and enormously powerful force whose tireless pur-
pose is their enslavement.
At the same time, I should like, thus publicly, to call upon all ex-
Communists Avho have not yet declared themselves, and all men within
566 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
the Communist Party whose better instincts have not yet been cor-
rupted and crushed by it, to aid in this struggle while there is still
time to do so.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, in your statement you stated that
jou yourself had served the underground, chiefly in Washington, D. C.
What underground apparatus are you speaking of and when was it
established ?
Mr. Chambers. Perhaps we should make a distinction at the begin-
ning. It is Communist theory and practice that even in countries
where the Comnuniist Party is legal, an underground party exists
side by side with the open party.
Tlie apparatus in Washington was an organization or group of that
underground.
Mr. Rankin. When you speak of the apparatus in Washington you
mean th^ Communist cell, do you not?
Mr. Chambers. I mean in effect a group of Connnunist cells.
Mr. Rankin. A group of Communist cells when you speak of
"apparatus" ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was a plan devised by the Communists to infiltrate
the Government of the United States for the purpose of using these
cells for the benefit of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Chambers. I would certainly say that that would be an ulti-
mate objective.
Mr. Stripling. What about the particular apparatus to which you
referred in your statement?
Mr. Chambers. Do you mean was it a Soviet agency?
Mr. Stripling. Was it established for the purpose of causing people
in the Government to serve the ultimate objectives of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Chambers. I think you could only say that in the extreme sense
the American party is an agency which serves the purpose of the
Soviet Government.
Mr. Stripling. Who comprised this cell or apparatus to which you
referred ?
Mr. Chambers. The apparatus was organized with a leading group
of seven men, each of wdiom was a leader of the cell.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name the seven individuals ? ,
Mr. Chambers. The head of the group as I have said was at first
Nathan Witt. Other members of the group were Lee Pressman, Alger
Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor Perlo, Charles Kramer
Mr. MuNDT. What was Charles Kramer's correct name?
' Mr. Chambers. I think his original name was Krevitsky, and John
Abt — I don't know if I mentioned him before or not — and Henry
Collins.
Mr. Rankin. How about Harold Ware ?
Mr. Chambers. Harold Ware was, of course, the organizer.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Ware was the son of Ella Reeve Bloor, the
woman Communist?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where in the Government these seven
individuals were employed?
Mr. Chambers. I did at one time. I think I could remember some
of them.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 567
Henry Collins was in the Department of Aoricnlture, Al<2:er Hiss
at that time I think was in the Munitions Investigation Committee or
wliatever the official title was, and Donald Hiss I think is in the Labor
Department, connected with innnig-ration.
I don't know otfhand what the others were doing.
JNIr. Stripling. Do yon know whether or not Nathan Witt was
employed in the AAA, the Agricultural Adjustment Administration?
INIr. Chambers. A nnmlier of these men had been in the AAA. I
think at that time Witt had already entered the National Labor Rela-
tions Board.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Lee Pressman was also
in the AAA ?
Mr. Chambers. He was at one time.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have a document here which shows
the employment history of Lee Pressman.
Mr. MuNDT. Will yon identify the document, please?
Mr. Stripling. It is Who's Who.
Mr. Rankin. Who's Who in American Jewry ; isn't it ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; Who's Who in American Jewry. He was as-
sistant general counsel of the Agricultural Adjustment Administra-
tion, Washington, D. C, from 193H until 1935, appointed by Secretary
of Agriculture Henry A. Wallace. Then he was general counsel in
Works Progress Administration from 1935, appointed by Harry L.
Hopkins. Then he was general counsel of the Resettlement Adminis-
tration, 1935, appointed by Rexford G. Tugwell. He was general
counsel, June 1936, for the Committee for Industrial Organization and
for the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee. General counsel,
March 1937, for Textile Workers' Organizing Committee.
Mr. Chairman, that completes his employment with the Govern-
ment service prior to his going with tlie CIO.
Do you know where John Abt v:as employed?
Mr. CiiAaiBERS. No; I don't. I have forgotten where he was at that
time.
jMr. MuNDT. Do you have his employment record ?
Mr. Stripling. According to Who's Who in Labor, INfr. Chairman,
he gives his Government service as follows :
Chief of Litigation, Agricultural Adjustment Administration, 1933
to 1935: assistant seneral counsel of the WPA in 1935; chief counsel
of the La Follette Civil Liberties Committee, 1930 to 1937; special
assistant to the LTnited States Attorney General, 1937 and 1938. He
is ]iow with the Progressive Party of Mr. Wallace.
Mr. Rankin. You mean this Lee Pressman is supporting Mr. Wal-
lace for the Presidency ?
, Mr. Stripling. He is associated in an official capacity with the
Progressive Party.
kMr. MuNDT. Mr. John Abt also.
Mr. Stripling. He likewise is associated with Mr. Wallace.
Mr. Hebert. There is no secret about the tie-up between Wallace and
the Communists. There is no need to pursue that.
1 Mr. Stripling. Do you recall where Donald Hiss was employed at
the time of this infiltration?
Mr. Chambers. I believe he was in the Department of Labor con-
nected with Immigration.
568 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, according to our check — I liaven't
checked back that far — but he is listed as an employee of the vState
Department February 1, 1988, to March 2(), 11)45.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Donald Hiss a brother of Alaer Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Younger brother of Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. I have here the employment record of Alger Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you should read that into the record, including
liis present employment.
Mr. Stripling. 1929 to 1930 he was secretary and law clerk to a
Supreme Court justice. From 1980 until 1988 lie engaged in the
practice of law.
Mr. Rankin. May I ask what Supreme Court justice Avas he clerk
for?
Mr. Stripling. I will furnish you that, Mr. Bankin.
Mr. Rankin. I would like to have it in this record right here and
now. Can you give me that information ?
Mr. Stripling. I will furnish you that.
From 1933 to 1985 he was employed by the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration. However, during the year 1984 he was also attached
to a special Senate committee investigating the munitions industry.
In 1935 he was employed as a special attorney by the Department
of Justice. September 13, 193C), he was appointed an assistant to the
Assistant Secretary of State. That is the information that I have as
of this time.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have the record of when he left the State De-
partment ?
Mr. Stripling. That information will be forthcoming very shortly.
Mr. MuNDT. And why. Do you have the reason why he was re-
moved from the State Department?
Mr. Stripling. I have no information that he was removed, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Chambers, in connection with tliis apparatus operating liere,
what was your participation or your function in connection with it?
Mr. Chambers. Originally I came to Washington to act as a courier
between New York and Washington, which in effect was between
this apparatus and New York.
Mr. Stripling. You Avere a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Were you a paid functionary of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet with all these men you mentioned?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet with them?
Mr. Chambers. At the home, the apartment of Henry Collins,
which was at St. Matthews Court here in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Did this apparatus have a so-called headquarters?
Mr. Chambers. It wasn't called a headquarters, but the St. Mat-
thews Court apartment was the closest thing to a headquarters it had.
Mr. Stripling. Did Hal Ware also have an apartment where you
met from time to time ?
Mr. Chambers. No; he undoubtedly had an apartment, but no one
met there tliat I know of.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 569
Mr. Stripling. Did his sister have a studio near Dupont Circle?
Mr. Chambers. His sister had a violin studio near Dupont Circle,
■which was used as a kind of casual meeting place or rendezvous for
members of the group.
Mr. Striplix(;. Would you say most of the meetings were held in
Henry Collins' apartment?
Mr. Chambers. All the group meetiugs were held there, not in
tlie studio.
Mr. Stripling. Henry Collins' apartment?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Who was the woman who ran the studio?
Mr. Chambers. Helen Ware.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, when you met with these people at
Mr. Collins' apartment, did you collect Communist Party dues from
them?
Mr. Chambers. I did not, but the Communist Party dues were
handed over to me by Collins, who was the treasurer of that group.
Mr. Stripling. Were all of these people members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did an individual by the name of J. Peters have
jtnything to do with the operation of this group ?
Mr. Chambers. J. Peters was, to the best of my knowledge, the
head of the whole underground United States Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. Did he from time to time come to AVashington?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. Stripling. Was he responsible for the setting up of this group?
Mr. Chambers. Ultimately he must have been. He was certainly
Harold Ware's superior.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know what J. Peters real name is?
Mr. Chambers. I have been told, I think it was Goldenweis, or
some such name.
Mr. Stripling. Goldberger?
Mr. Chambers. Goldberger.
Mr. Rankin. What was his given name?
Mr. Chambers. He was known to me for 3'ears simply as Peters.
Mr. Stripling. His name, Mr. Rankin, is well known in Communist
Party circles. He has gone under the name of J. Peters, also under
the name of Alexander Stevens, and has traveled on false passports
under the name of Isidore Boorstein.
On October 30, 1946
Mr. Chambers. May I interrupt?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Peters told me at one time that he had been a petty
officer in the Austrian Army during World War I. After the Bela Kun
revolution in Hungary he was a member of the Soviet Government of
Hungarv, I think, in the agricultural commissariat.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the Committee on Un-American
Activities on August 19, 1947, issued a subpena to be served upon J.
Peters calling for his appearance before the committee on October 30
of that year. We made a very diligent effort both in New York City
and in up-State New York to serve this subpena. We have never
been able to locate him and ^xe. have asked the assistance of the Depart-
570 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ment of Justice and Immigration authorities, but still we have been
unable to serve a subpena upon this individual.
In Communist Party circles, according to our investigation, he has
for years been known as the head of the underground.
Was that your understanding, Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; it was.
Mr. Stripling. When you were in the party ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You say this man was formerly a member of a foreign
army and served as a member of the commissariat of a foreign gov-
ernment. Do you know whether he ever became an American citizen ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I do not know. I think the presumption is
probably he did not.
Mr. MuNDT. He did not?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. The presumption is that the top direction of these
espionage activities carried on throughout our governmental depart-
ments was conducted by a man who was not an American citizen.
Mr. Stripling. He is not an American citizen, Mr, Chairman.
Mr. Chambers. I am not surprised.
Mr. Stripling. Deportation order has been issued against him in the
last year, but his whereabouts is still unknown to us. He is a very
important witness.
Mr. MuNDT. Has the Department of Justice ever been able to locate
him?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Thomas, the chairman of our committee, com-
municated with officials of the Justice Department this year, as well
as last year, in an effort to locate Mr. Peters, and so far we have not
received information as to where he is.
Mr. MuNDT. They will have to modify that statement that they
always get their man and add "with the exception of Mr. Peters."
Mr. Rankin. You understand, Mr. Chairman, in the State of New
York under their present FEPC law you can't ask a man who applies
for employment what his name was before it was changed or where
he came from, so that it is a veritable storm cellar for people of that
character.
Mr. Stripling. We have in our possession a passport issued October
7, 1931, which was used by Peters to travel to the Soviet Union.
The name on the passport is that of Isidore Boorstein.
Mr. MuNDT. How does a man who is not an American citizen get
a passport for travel abroad?
Mr. Chambers. Maj^ I interrupt? Peters once explained to me his
process of securing false passports.
Mr. MuNDT. I wish you w^ould go into that in some detail because
there have been many instances and it has become veritable racket
where these Communists get passports to visit Soviet Russia.
Mr. Chaimbers. He told me with great amusement because of the
simplicity of the scheme. He had sent up to the genealogical division
of the New York Public Library a group of young Communists, I
presume, who collated the birth and death records; that is, they found
that a child had been born, let us say, in 1900 and died a month or so
later or several months later.
The party through some members then wrote to the proper authori-
ties in New York for issuing birth certificates and asked for a birth
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 571
certificate in the name of that dead chikl. The certificate was forth-
coming and a pass])ort Avas tlien applied for under that name by some-
one using tliat birth certificate.
Mr. Striplixg. AVe have an example, Mr. Chairman, of a passport
being obtained through that ^ame technique by the Communist Party
in South Carolina.
Mr, Rankin. Under the FEPC law in New York, you couldn't even
ask that man for his birth certificate or where he came from if he
applied for emplojanent.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. For the present record it ought to be said that many
Chinese have entered the United States by that same method in the
last 15 years.
]Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, when you would meet at the apart-
ment of Mr, Collins and he would turn over Communist Party dues,
would he turn over any other information to you, any other dues or
information other than from these seven people i
Mr, Chambers. Well, the dues were not simply from the seven
people, I believe. Dues were from the whole apparatus, cells which
were headed bj^ these seven people,
Mr. Stripling. How much money was turned over to you from time
to time ?
Mr, Chambers. That I don't know.
Mr, Stripling, Was it a considerable sum ?
Mr. Chambers. M}" impression was that it was and I believe I heard
that because at that time the dues were 10 percent of whatever the
individual's salary was.
Mr. MuNDT. Miss Bentley testified before our committee and said
that in her capacity as courier between Communist headquarters in
New York and Washington, I think chronologically she followed you
as courier and did that work, she mentioned that she also brought
Communist litei'ature and instructions from New York to Washing-
ton. Did you also do that ?
Mr. Chambers, I did.
Mr. MuNDT. You did that, too?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, When Miss Bentley testified before the committee
last Saturday, Mr. Chambers, she mentioned the name of Victor Perlo
as being the head of an espionage group. You have named Victor
Perlo as a member of the apparatus.
Mr, Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. At that time do you know whether or not Victor
Perlo was employed in the Government?
Mr, Chambers. I believe at that time Victor Perlo was employed
by the Brookings Institution.
Mr. MuNDT, I think we read his employment record into the record
of the hearing while Miss Bentley was testifying, did we not ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, ]Mr. Chairman. I have his employment his-
tory here. It is already in the record,
Mr, MuNDT, He was employed with the Govermnent several times?
Mr. Stripling, That is true, and was with the Brookings Institution,
also.
Would you tell the committee, Mr. Chambers, whether or not you
ever held any important positions in the Comnumist Part}'?
572 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Chambers. I would hesitate to fall them important. I was for
a number of years the actual editor of the Daily Worker. Tlie nomi-
nal editor was Robert Minor.
Mr. Stripling. Robert Minor?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Durino- what period was that?
Mr. Chambers. I should think from about 192() until 1929, when I
broke with the Communist Party for 2 years, but I broke with it on a
matter of tactics and not on a matter of philoso]5hy.
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Connnunist Party in 1987 did
you approach any of these seven to break with you ?
Mr. Chambers. No. The only one of those people whom I ap-
proached was Alger Hiss. I went to tlie Hiss home one evening- at
what I considered considerable risk to myself and found Mrs. Hiss
at home. Mrs. Hiss is also a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Mundt. Mrs. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Alger Hiss. Mrs. Donald Hiss, I believe, is
not.
Mrs. Hiss attempted while I was there to make a call, which I can
only presume was to other Communists, but I quickly went to the
telephone and she hung up, and Mr. Hiss came in shortly afterward,
and we talked and I tried to break him away from the party.
As a matter of fact, he cried when we separated; when I left him,
but he absolutely refused to break.
Mr. McDowell. He cried?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, he did. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Mundt. He must have given you some reason why he did not
want to sever the relationship.
Mr. Chambers. His reasons were simply the party line.
Mr. Hebert. I think there is a differentiation there that the wit-
ness has said he broke not because of his philosophy, but because of a
disagreement as to tactics. What is the differentiation?
Mr. Chambers. It is not of very great importance, but Stalin liad
recently come to power in Russia in the Connnunist Party. Here in
the United States something entirely new happened within the party.
Until then there had always been a majority and a minority group
whose equal rights in debate vrere recognized. With the coming to
power of Stalin and the Browder-Foster group in the United States,
which represented the Stalin group, that was no longer true. Democ-
racy disappeared from the Comnuniist Party and the minority group
was liquidated. In fact, it was the majority group.
Mr. McDowell. Was that group that was liquidated the
Trotskyites ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; it was the Lovestoneites.
Mr. Hebert. But as I understand your testimony, under Lenin you
had democracy; is that right?
Mr. Chambers. No.
INIr. Hebert. You said with the coming of Stalin democracy was
wiped out.
Mr. Chambers. There was in the Communist Party before Stalin
the possibility of open argument between two groups of Communists,
so that within the Communist framework there was a kind of
democracy.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 573
Mr. Hebekt. You only quit because of the tactics and niecliaiiics
of the party, and not because of a change in philosophy ?
Mr. McDowell. The Lovestoneites were headed by Jay Lovestone*
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. Is he still a member of the party?
Mr. Chambers. He was expelled in 1929.
Mr. Rankin. If it had not been for those changes m tactics, would
you still be a member of the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Chambers. At that time I was still a Communist, and I did not
leave because I had ceased to be a Communist. I left because of a
difference in tactics and a difference in atmosphere.
Mr. Rankix. When did you cease to be a Communist because of your
convictions ?
Mr. Chambers. 1937.
Mr. Rankin. Was Louis Budenz ever with you?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Rankin. Do 3^ou know him ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. MuNDT. As communism is now directed by Stalin from Moscow
and as his tactics are now carried out, how would you differentiate
between Stalin's communism and Hitler's nazism?
Mr. Chambers. I should find that very difficult to do. I would saj
that they are most totalitarian forms of government, if you like. I feel
quite unable to answer that.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you say they are both different facets of
fascism ?
Mr. Chambers; I think that would lead us into a very long discus-
sion.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you say the differentiation between fascism and
communism is a distinction without a difference?
Mr. Chambers. It can be said loosely that communism is a kind of
fascism, I think.
Mr. MuNDT. It is pretty hard to find any basic distinction between
fascism and communism as communism is practiced by the Stalinists
in JNIoscow and as they direct the activities of the American Communist
Party.
Mr. Chambers. I think you have raised a philosophical and intel-
lectual point which would require almost a book. It would require
almost a book to develop and interpret that.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of any vital distinction between com--
munism as practiced in Russia and fascism as we generally understand
it to be ? I know the committee would be very glad to find that distinc-
tion because we have been unable to get it from any other witness.
Mr. Chambers. I don't feel qualified to emphasize the distinction,
Mr. Rankin. Communism is atheistic, is- it not ?
Mr. Chambers. It is.
Mr. Rankin. One of its basic principles is the wiping out of the
Christian church throughout the world?
Mr. Chambers. Wiping out of all religion. Every Communist is
ipso facto an atheist.
Mr. Rankin. It is also dedicated to the destruction of this Govern-
ment and to the wiping out of the American way of life ; is that cor-
rect?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; it can be said.
574 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kankix. And also the wii:)ing out of what it calls the capitalist
system '?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Kankin. The right to own private property ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, communism would make a slave of
every American man, woman, and chilc^ excepting the commissars
that dominated them ; is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. That is.
Mr. Rankin. And would close every Christian church in America?
Mr. Chambers. Well, the Russian Church seems to have some kind
-of unhappy existence.
Mr. Rankin. I understand, but you know that they closed every
church in Russia and they were closed at the time you quit the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. It can be said quite simply that communism is com-
pletely atheistic and is the enemy of religion in every form.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, they would close all churches of all
iinds ?
Mr. Chambers. Mohammedan mosques, Jewish synagogues, as well
as Christian churches'.
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, Miss Bentley testified last Saturday,
and she named Harry Dexter White as a person who worked with the
espionage group. Did you know Harry Dexter Wliite?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I did.
Mr. Stripling. Is Harry Dexter White a Communist? Was he a
Communist, to your knowledge?
Mr. Chambers. I can't say positively that he was a registered mem-
ber of the Communist Party, but he certainly was a fellow traveler so
far within the fold that his not being a Communist would be a mistake
on both sides.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to Harry Dexter White when you left the
Communist Party and ask him also to leave the party?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Stripling. You considered him to be a Communist Party mem-
ber, then ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I accepted an easy phrasing. I didn't ask him
to leave the Communist Party, but to break away from the Communist
movement.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you?
Mr. Chambers. He left me apparently in a very agitated frame of
mind, and I thought I had succeeded. Apparently I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you later have reason to feel that you had failed
in that effort?
Mr. Chambers. Miss Bentley's testimony and certain things I heard
from other sources assured me that I had failed.
Mr. MuNDT. Assured you that you had failed ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. I think we should have Mr. White identified.
Mr. Stripling. He was identified in the record the other day as
Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and head of Monetary Research.
Mr. Hebert. This man White is the same man Wliite Miss Bentlej'
talked about; is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 575
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT, His employment record was read into the record on
Saturday.
Mr. Striplixo. Do you know an individual by the name of Harold
Glasser, who was associated with
Mr. Chambers. I think I was introduced once or twice to Glasser.
Mr. Stripling. He was also named, Mr. Chairman, by Miss Bentley.
How many times would you say you met Victor Perlo?
Mr. Chambers. It would be very difficult to say, but I knew him over
a period of
Mr. Stripling. Did yon know him rather well?
Mr. Chambers. Not very well. I didn't specially like him. He
seemed to be a rather sullen and shallow kind of man.
Mr. Rankin. Do yon know where he came from ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't.
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know an individual named Owen Latimer?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't.
Mr. Mundt. You met Victor Perlo at this same Henry Collins'
apartment where you met these other gentlemen?
Mr. Chaivibers. That is right. It is, in fact, the only place I ever
saw him. I might add in that group he was a very minor figure.
There was some kind of a struggle going on among these people for
headship of the group because at one point Nathan Witt resigned, I
suppose, and the headship of this group was elected within the group.
Mr. Mundt. After your period as courier at the time Miss Bentley
took over, at that time Perlo had attained the leadership of one group
and Mr. Silvermaster the other, which was the result, I presume, of the
struggle you mentioned taking place within the apparatus at that time;
is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think there was any connection. The
rivalry was between John Abt and Victor Perlo, and, as I remember
it, the only person who voted in that meeting for Perlo was Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the actual head of the group ?
Mr. Chambers. The actual head of the group — well, the elected head
of the group was either Witt at one time or Abt, and the organizer of
the group had been Harold Ware. The head of the whole business was
J. Peters.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Ware was employed in the AAA, was he not ?
Mr. Chaisibers. I don't know whether he was or not. If I have
known, I have forgotten. My impression is he wasn't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall what happened to Harold Ware ?
Mr. Chambers. He was killed in an automobile accident.
Mr. Stripling. Here in Washington?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I think in Pennsylvania.
Mr. Rankin. What was his real name?
Mr. Chambers. As far as I know, Harold Ware. T neve.r knew him.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Aubrey Williams?
Mr. Chambers. No; I never did.
Mr. Rankin. You say you are now with Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Are there any other Communists or ex-Communists in
key positions with that magazine?
Mr. Chambers, I would say that, like the American Government,
Time magazine has had its problems with communism.
576 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. You mean it still has them connected with it?
Mr. Chambers. No; I think being a smaller enterprise we have got
rid of our Communists.
Mr. Rankin. I see a name, William Schlamm. Do you know that
man?
Mr. Chamber^s. William Schlamm was an Austrian Communist who
broke with the party in 1929.
Mr. Rankin. Is he connected with Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. He is connected with Time, Inc., I believe.
Mr. Rankin. Time magazine has been rather relentless in its at-
tacks on this committee all along, and I was wondering what was the
motive behind it. Can you give us any answer to that.
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't feel qualified. That department of the
magazine in wdiich such news would appear I am not connected with.
Mr. Rankin. I see. Certainly it is no affection for communism.
Mr. S'lRiPLiNG. You said j'ou never met Aubrey Williams?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear Aubrey Williams' name discussed
at any of these meetings?
Mr. Chambers. I can't say definitely that I did, but I have heard
Communists mention Williams as a friend of the Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. But 3'ou don't know whetlier or not he was a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Stripling. He was considered by Communists to be friendly to
tlieir cause?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Did you hear the name of Clark Foreman mentioned?
Mr. Chambers. No, I didn't.
• Mr. Hebert. At any time.
Mr. Chambers. No ; I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. Hebert. Can you at this time elaborate more on your connec-
tion with White?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I can.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, you actually talked to AVhite?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; of course.
Mr. Hebert. You discussed matters with him. I think it would be
of interest to the committee to know what you discussed with him.
Mr. Chambers. After I had been in Washington a while it was very
clear that some of the members of these groups were going places in
the Government.
Mr. Hebert. What year is this?
Mr. Chambers. I should think about 19;')(). One of them clearly was
Alger Hiss, and it was believed that Henry Collins also might go
farther. Another w^as Lee Pressman. So it was decided by Peters,
or by Peters in conference with people whom I don't know, that we
would take these people out of that a])paratus and separate them from
it physically — that is, they would have no further intercourse with
the peo])le there — but they would be connected still with that apparatus
and with Peters through me.
It was also decided to add to this group certain other people who
had not originally been in that api)aratus. One of those people was
Harry AYliite.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 577
iVIr. Rankin. You referred to a man a while ago by the name of
Kramer.
Mr. Hehkkt. ]Mr. Rankin, would you mind letting him finish with
Mr. White?
Mr. Rankin. Very well.
Mr. Chambers. Do you care to question me about White?
Mr. Hebert. I want to finish concerning White.
Mr. Chambers. I thought I had.
Mr. Hebert. Was he considered as a source of information to the
Communist cell ?
Mr, Chambers. No. I should perhaps make the point that these
people were specifically not wanted to act as sources of information.
These people were an elite group, an outstanding group, which it was
believed would rise to positions — as, indeed, some of them did — notably
Mr. White and Mr. Hiss — in the Government, and their position in
the Government would be of very much more service to the Communist
Party -
jMr. Hebert. In other words, White was being used as an unwitting-
dupe ?
Mr. Chambers. I would scarcely say "unw^itting."
Mr. Hebert. Did he know what he was being used for ?
Mr. Cha^ibers. I doubt w^hether the word "used" is even proper.
Mr. Hebert. Employed?
Mr. Chambers. He was, as nearly as I know, perfectly willing to
cooperate.
Mr. Hejjert. In your connection with White and your conversations
with him — you met him personally and talked with him?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. From your conversations with him and his knowl-
edge of the information that the Communist group was securing, or
attempting to secure, and liis knowledge of the whole set-up, the whole
apparatus, w(juld you say from that — in your opinion — that would
elicit from him the exclamation over the week end, "This is fantastic !
It is sliocking !" that he w^as connected with the Communist group?
Mr. Chambers. He made this remark when he was asked
Mr. HEiiERT. It was reported in the press that when informed of
Miss Bentley's charges against him — and, mind you. Miss Bentley
says she never saw^ White and cannot connect White except by hear-
say evidence — that when he was confronted wnth Miss Bentley's testi-
mony and the statement she made before the committee last Saturday,
his exclamation was "It is fantastic ! It is shocking !"
From your information and personal knowledge, do you think that
is a spontaneous outburst of surprise that he was connected with such
a group in any way, even by remote control, as Mr. Rankin has said?
Mr. Chambers. After my evidence — my testimony — I should think
he would have to find some more adjectives.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, would you say, then, that the pur-
pose of the Communist Party
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, is he finished with his questions in regard
to Mr. White?
Mr. Stripling. I want to make an observation in connection with
what he said.
Mr. Nixon. All right ; and I want to follow that.
80408 — 48 6
578 COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE
Mr. Stripling. I want to get clear the status of tliis select group
that infiltrated the Government.
Would you say the purpose was, on the part of the Communists,
to establish a beachhead or a base from which they could move further
into the Government and obtain positions of power, influence, and
possible espionage?
Mr. Chambers. I would say power and influence were the para-
mount objectives. • .
Mr. Stripling. At that time?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; at that time. You must remember you are
dealing with the underground here in a formative stage, with Com-
munists many of whom had not been in the party more than a year
or so.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chambers, I want to ask you about this man you
referred to a while ago, Charles Kramer. How do you spell that?
Mr. Chambers. I believe it is spelled K-r-a-m-e-r.
Mr. Rankin. What did you say his real name was ?
Mr. Chambers. Krevitsky.
Mr. Rankin. Where did he come from?
Mr. Chambers. I haven't the remotest idea.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. I did hear. I think he came from New York City.
He was an NYU man.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. Rankin. Is that the same man who it was testified worked in
the office of Senator Pepper at one time and Senator Kilgore at
another ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe he was ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not he was one of the men
connected with the trumping up the persecution of Senator Bilbo?
Mr. Chambers. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Rankin. You knew tliat Communists picketed Senator Bilbo's
boarding house within two or three blocks of the Senate Office Build-
ing for months and months, did you not?
Mr. MuNDT. I object to the designation of ""boarding house." That
is an apartment house, in which I live.
Mr. Rankin. Very well. We will call it an apartment house since
Mr. Mundt objects to calling it a boarding house. However, he did
have to hold his nose in order to get through that picket line.
You said a moment ago when you quit the Communist Party you
carried a gun.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Rx\NKiN. Why did you carry that gun?
Mr. CiixVMBERs. I carried the gun because I believed that the Com-
munists might attempt to kill me.
Mr. Rankin. That is their program, is it, disposing of the men who
quit the Communist line?
Mr. CiiAMP.ERS. No; I wouldn't say it was an invariable program.
They never did kill me.
INIr. Rankin. I understand; but you were prepared for it?
Mr. Chambers. It seemed to me that they might very well make
the attempt.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 579
"Sir. Raxkix. You were doing it because you knew your life was in
(lano;er?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Eankix. And you knew that if they did get an opportunity to
bump you oif without getting caught, tliat would probably be the
course Ihey would pursue ?
Mr. Chambers. It seemed the natural thing.
jMr. MuNDT. Mr. Chambers, I am very much interested in trying to
check the career of Alger Hiss. I know nothing about Donald Hiss ;
but as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the personnel com-
mittee, I have had some occasion to check the activities of Alger Hiss
while he was in the State Department.
There is reason to believe that he organized within that Department
one of the Communist cells wdiich endeavored to influence our Chinese
policy and bring about the condemnation of Chiang Kai-shek, which
put Marzani in an important position there, and I think it is important
to know what happened to these people after they leave the Govern-
ment. Do you know where Alger Hiss is employed now ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe Alger Hiss is now the head of the Carnegie
Foundation for World Peace.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the same information that had come to me- and
I am happy to have it confirmed. Certainly there is no hope for world
peace under the leadership of men like Alger Hiss.
Mr, Rankin. Where is the headquarters of that organization?
Mr. Chambers. I do not know.
Mr. ISIcDowELL. New York.
Mr. Rankix. Under the New York FEPC law, you can't ask this
man whether he is a Comnnniist or not, or where he came from, or what
his name was before it was changed. You can't even ask for his photo-
graph. Of course, he can get into an institution of that kind in New
York, l)ut he couldn't do it in Mississippi.
Mr. Chambers. May I interrupt ?
Mr. ]\Iux"DT. Proceed.
Mr. Chambers. I think Mr. Donald Hiss, who was also in the State
Department, is now in Mr. Corcoran's law firm.
Mr. MuxDT. In Washington?
Mr. Chambers. In Washington ;'and was connected with the negoti-
ating of the loan to Poland.
Mr. MuNDT. Tommy Corcoran, of the Corcoran-Cohen team?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. Do you know where any of the other seven people are
employed ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I couldn't say.
Mr. Raxkix'. Right at that point, don't you think Mr. Carnegie, the
rich Scotchman that developed this foundation, would turn over in his
grave if he knew that kind of people were running the foundation?
Mr. Chambers. I am afraid he would.
Mr. McDowell. I w^ould like to observe to the committee that — re-
ferring back to Mr. White, who was surprised and shocked at the
testimony given by Miss Bentley — that the Secretary of the Treasury
has more skilled investigators and detectives and various people who
are supposed to be able to develop in^formation than any other depart-
ment of the Government except the Attorney General ; and it is pass-
580 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ingly strange that this man could associate and be connected personally
with this gang of international conspirators for as long a period as he
was and then still not know what he was doing.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you indicated that 9 years ago you came
to Washington and reported to the Government authorities concerning
the Communists who were in the Government.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. To wdiat Government agency did you make that report?
Mr. Chambers. Isaac Don Levine, who is now the editor of Plain
Talk, approached the late Marvin Mclntyre, Mr. Roosevelt's secretary,
I believe, and asked him what would be the most proper form in which
the information I had to give could be brought before President
Roosevelt.
Mr. Mclntyre told Mr. Levine that Mr. A. A. Berle, the Assistant
Secretary of State, was Mr. Roosevelt's man in intelligence matters.
I then went to see Mr. Berle and told him much of what I have been
telling you.
Mr. MuNDT. That was in 1937?
Mr. Chambers. That was in 1939 about 2 days after the Hitler-
Stalin pact.
Mr. Nixon. When you saw Mr. Berle then did you discuss generally
tlie people that were in Government, or did you name specific namas ?
Mr, Chambers. I named specific names, Mr. Hiss among others.
Mr. Nixon. Did you name Mr. Witt?
Mr. Chambers. I certainly did.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Pressman?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Pressman.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Chambers. Probably.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Abt?.
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ware ?
Mr, Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Collins?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. White?
Mr, Chambers. No; because at that time I thought that I had
broken Mr. White awav, and it was about 4 years later tliat I first told
the P^BI about Mr. White.
Mr. Nixox. You told the FBI 4 years later when you had become
convinced you had not broken him away ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Collins was also in the State Department?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I think he went in during the war.
Mr. MuNDT. He belonged to the Alger Hiss cell in the State Depart-
ment ?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. McDoAVELL. Mr. Berle, is he the present head of the Liberal
Party of New York State?
Mr. Chambers. I am not sure whether he is or not. "
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 581
Mr. MGDo^^■ELL. Wiis he the A. A. Berle who became an Ambassador
to one of the South American countries?
Mr. Chambers. Brazil, I believe. He is an anti-Communist, it
should be said, and a very intelligent man.
Mr. Raxkix. Mr. Berle?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Berle is an anti-Communist.
Mr. Nixox. ]SIr. Chambers, were you informed of any action that
was taken as a result of your report to the Government at that time?
Mr. Chambers. No; I was not. I assumed that action would be
taken right away which was, of course, rather naive of me; and it
wasn't until a great deal later that I discovered apparently nothing
had been done.
Mr. Nixox. It is significant, I think, that the report was made 2
days after the Stalin-Hitler pact at the time, in other w^ords, when we
could not say by any stretch of the imagination that the Russians were
(jur allies; and yet, apparently, no action was taken.
Mr. Chambers. Well, we are here in an area of government which I
am not qualified to talk about.
Mr. Raxkix. What is that ?
Mr. Chambers. We are here in an area of government policies I
am not qualified to talk about.
Mr. Nixox. I understand.
Mr. MuxDT. At the time you reported these names to Mr. Berle, you
had reason to believe that Communist Russia might well become an
active enemy of this co'untry rather than a friend through that Stalin-
Hitler Pact"?
Mr. Chambers. I never supposed Russia at any time was anything
but an enemy of this country. It is an enemy of all democratic coun-
tries.
Mr. Raxkix. I would like to ask about this statement. In your
statement which vou read to the committee awhile ago vou use this
statement :
"Disloyalty is a matter of principle with every member of the Com-
munist Party.''
That was true back in the days when you were a member, was it?
Mr. Chambers. It was true from the time of the First International.
Mr. Raxkix. You knew it was true then?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. Raxkix. You say the Communist Party exists for the specific
purpose of overthrowing the Government at the opportune time by
Mr. Raxkix. Now, you mentioned a while ago Kramer. He is
a member is dedicated to this purpose. That was the case when you
were a member and that is the case today ?
^Ir. Chambers. That has been the case for just 100 j^ears.
^Ir. Raxkix. In other words, every Communist who is now meeting
in New York is dedicated to the destruction of this Government?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I refer you to the words of INIarx and Lenin.
Mr. Raxkix. Now, you menticmed a while ago Kramer. He is
the fellow Krevitsky we referred to before?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness:
Did you know a man named Saposs?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I know of him. I do not know tliat he is a
Connnunist.
582 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Hebert. What do you know about his activities?
Mr. Chambers. I know nothing about his activities. I knew him
3^ears ago as the author of a rather dull book on labor problems.
Mr. Hebert. You don't link him with these activities ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. What was Mr. Berle's attitude when vou turned this
information over to him?
Mr. Chambers. Considerable excitement.
Mr. Hebert. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know that he made any very sensational
comment, but he said among other things that we absolutely have to
have a clean Government service because we are faced with the pros-
pect of war. I am paraphrasing that. That is not an exact quota-
tion.
Mr. Hebert. In view of the statements of Mr. Chambers at this
time may I suggest that this committee invite Mr. Berie to come here
so we can get the background and also corroborate this testimony. I
think it is most important that every chain be linked with the other
chain in this situation.
Mr. Mundt. Is he in this country ?
Mr. Hebert. If he is in the cou.ntry. he should be invited to come.
I have every reason to respect the integrity of Mr. Berle.
Mr. Mundt. The Committee will take that up in executive session.
Mr. Rankin. ]\lr. Berle testified befoi'e the committee last year.
Mr. Hebert. During tlie discussions on the Mundt-Nixon bill. But
the purpose now is to have him corroborate this. What I am most
interested in is that this committee is not witch hunting or Ked bait-
ing, but is trying to get the facts of what is going on. Since this is
a public hearing, I think all these matters should be brouglit out in
full public gaze and for full public interpretation and appreciation
of what we are trying to do; and for that reason I think every indi-
vidual mentioned should be brought before the committee to either
corroborate the testimony or impeach it.
Mr. Berle's attention was directed to this matter, and I think it is
of interest to the connnittee and the people at large to know why
methods were pursued.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you indicated a moment ago that it was
approximately 4 years after you had spoken to Mr. Berle that you
went before the FBI.
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. At that time you did give the FBI information concern-
ing White?
Mr. Chambers. White, that is right.
Mr. NixON. Also did I understand you to say that Donald Hiss
in his connection with Mr. Corcoran was active in negotiating the loan
to Poland?
Mr. Chambers. I have been told that.
Mr. Mundt. Is that all, Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. NixoN. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Hebert mentioned a while ago the fact that this
committee had been accused of ''Red baiting." It has only been accused
of "Red baiting" by the Reds, their stooges, and fellow travelei-s.
No intelligent American who Imows the facts has ever accused this
committee of "Red baiting."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 583
Mr. MuNDT. Any other questions?
Mv. Hebert. May I pursue just one more?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What is your educational background?
Mr. Chambers. I went to tlie public schools and then went to Co-
lumbia University for a year and a half.
Mr. Hebert. It is interesting to note that every time we talk about
communism we hear about Columbia University.
Mr. CnA3iBERs. There wasn't any in Columbia at that time. I be-
came a Communist after I left the university.
Mr. Kankix. How about comnumism in that institution now?
jNIr. Chambers. I am not qualified to discuss it.
Mr. Hebert. You became a Communist through no persuasion of
anybodv else but purely through your own conclusions, in trying to
follow jihilosophical thinking — you thought it was something to make
a better world, to make the world a better place to live in, and nobody
persuaded you to become a Communist ; is that right ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Were you familiar Avith the American history and
American government during your elementary schooling?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Did that impress you?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You threw that over?
Mr. Chambers. I had reached the conclusion, particularly as a result
of the war, that the whole system which we now know as capitalist
societ}^ was in a very bad waj^ and something very drastic had to be
done to keep the whole thing together.
Mr. Hebert. You thought it was a new system?
Mr. Chambers. I thought a new system was evolving.
Mr. Hebert. Pursuing INfr. Rankin's question, in connection with
your statement that Conmiunists are disloyal per se, did you consider
yourself disloyal to your Government?
Mr. Chambp;rs. Certainly.
Mr. Hebert. You remained an American citizen and yet you joined
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. All Communists do that.
Mr. Hebert. You are an intelligent individual and well educated.
You said members of the Communist Party were disloyal. Did it ever
occur to you that you were disloyal to your own Government? Why
didn't you renounce your citizenship?
Mr. Chamber. No Communist would ever think of doing such a
thing.
Mr. Hebert. You knew you were being disloyal to the American
Government ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You preferred to be disloyal to gain the end that you
thought you would make a better world ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Were you a member of a church at that time?
Mi\ Chambers. No ; I was not.
Mr. Rankin. You never had been?
Mr. Chambers. I am now.
584 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Raniv:in. A inenibei- of a Christian chuirli now?
Ml'. Chajibers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Before releasing the witness, the Chair would like to
announce that we have gotten in touch with Mr. Silverniaster, who
has responded to our subpena and is in the city. Now he claims he
has asthma, which he may or may not have, because I can't believe
these Communists, but since he claims he has an asthma attack, we
are going to defer hearing Mr. Silvermaster until 10:30 tomorrow
morning.
The Chair would like to say, Mr. Chambers, in conclusion, that we
sincerely appreciate the testimony you have given here today. It
is a tremendously difficult job to probe the thinking of the American
Communist mind, and it is from men like you, Mr. Budenz, women
like Miss Bentley, who have been down into the valley of the shadow
and seen the error of the Communist philosophy and had the courage
and good patriotism to renounce communism openly and to make
available to the law-enforcement and investigating agencies of the
(lovernment your information — it is because of that that slowly but
surely Ave are piecing together this pattern of the Communist con-
spiracy and helping to educate a rather gullible America to the fact
that it can ha})pen here and will happen here unless it alerts itself.
Mr. Chamhers. It is happening here.
Mr. MuNDT. It is happening here now, and this committee and the
FBI are at least two agencies of Government doing the best they can
at the moment to try to stop it.
We appreciate the fact that it is not a pleasant assignment for
you, sir. We thank you very much for coming here and cooperating
so wholeheartedly on this problem.
Mr. Chambers. Thank you.
Mr. Rankin. S])eaking for the minority, I want to say that the
gentleman has made a splendid witness, and I only regret that every
])atriotic American could not be here to hear his testimony.
Mr. Chambers. Thank you, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. I hope that the other Communists who hear your testi-
mony will change their minds and come here and share with us their
thinking and their ex])erience also.
Mr. Rankin. You failed to mention one fellow a while ago that
in my mind made one of the finest witnesses that ever came here, and
that was a Negro by the name of Nowell that told about being taken
to Moscow and learning how to blow up bridges, blow up waterworks
and powerhouses and carry on a revolution whenever the word came
down. He came here at the risk of his "own life, gentlemen.
Mr. Chambers. May I say the general name of that is "zersotzuf-
fusteil." That means an apparatus for destroying.
Mr. Rankin. He made a good witness.
Mr. Mundt. Thank you very much for your cooperation, Mr. Cham-
bers. The committee will recess until tomorrow morning at 10:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., the committee recessed until 10:30
a. m., Wednesday, August 4, 1948.)
i
HEARINGS EEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4. 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Acttvities,
Washington,, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the
caucus room, Okl House Office Building, Hon. Karl E. Mundt
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. ISIundt, John
McDowell, Richard M. Nixon. John E. Rankin, J. Hardin Peterson,
and F. p]dward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Striplmg, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. "VVHieeler, Robert B. Gaston, Donald
Appell, investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director of research; and
A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
Before proceeding with the hearing, the Chair would like to read
two telegrams which have been received this morning in response to
the statement made by the committee that we would be glad to hear
anybody whose names have been mentioned during these hearings,
that we would accord such persons the same opportunity to testify in
public and before the press as the hearings at which their names are
placed into the record.
We have received only 2 requests so far from the 25 or 30 people
whose names have been mentioned. I shall read these two telegrams
at this time.
The first is from Pittsburgh :
Charges by Miss Bentley apparently directed against us are shocking and
completely untrue. The woman is entirely unknown to us and in all fairness
we urgently request earliest possible opportunity to testify publicly and under
oath to the utter falsity of her charges. It is our earnest hope that as much
public attention will be given to clearing those that are innocent as has been
given to these sensational allegations.
Signed, "Dr. and Mrs. Bela Gold, 619 South Crest, Pittsburgh, Pa."
I think the testimony taken dealt with the doctor and Mrs. William
Gold, but they are probably the same people.
Mr. Stripling. William and Sonia Gold.
Mr, Mundt. We assume these are the same people and we will be
glad to hear them in i^ublic session as soon as Ave can arrange the
hearing.
The second telegram comes from New York :
My attention has been called by representatives of the press to statements
made about me before your committee this morning by one Whittaker Chambers.
I do not know Mr. Chambers and insofar as I am aware have never laid eyes
585
586 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
on him. There is no basis for the statements made about me to your committee.
I would appreciate it if you would make this telegram a part of your com-
mittee's record, and I would further appreciate the opportunity to appear before
jour committee to make these statements formally and under oath. I shall be
in Washington on Thursday and hope that that will be a convenient time from
the committee's point of view for me to appear.
Signed, "Alger Hiss."
The committee will hear Alger Hiss in public testimony tomorrow
morning at 10 : 30.
And now, Mr. Stripling, who is your first witness this morning?
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster. However, before proceeding I would like to
read a brief statement.
Mr. MuNDT. You may read it.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Public Law 601 of the Seventy-ninth
Congress, second session, and House Resolution 5, of the Eightieth
Congress, provide the authority for the Committee on Un-American
Activities, United States House of Representatives.
Public Law 601 (sec. 121, subsec. (q) (2) ) states :
Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommitteee is
authorized to make from time to time Investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States; (ii)
the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion ; and (iii) all other qnestions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
Pursuant to this mandate the committee has been conducting an
investigation in the past several months into alleged Communist in-
filtration, of Communist agents, into the Federal Government and
tiie operation within the Government of certain persons who were
collecting information to be turned over to a foreign government.
The hearing this morning is for the purpose of pursuing this in-
vestigation. , Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, a former employee of
the Government, who was subpenaed to appear before the Committee
on Un-American Activities on May 25, 1948, is before the committee
this morning in connection with the above-mentioned inquiry. All
questions propounded to Mr. Silvermaster will be pertinent to the in-
quiry and he shall be required to answer them.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Stripling, what you are reading there is from
the rules of the House, is it not?
Mr. Stripling. That is Public Law 601, Mr. Rankin, adopted as
rules of the House beginning with the Eightieth Congress.
Mr. Rankin. That was my resolution to create this committee as
a standing committee of the House.
Mr. Stripling. I believe that is the language; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in the room ?
Mr. Stripling. He is on the witness stand.
Will you stand and be sworn?
Mj-. MuNDT. Mr. Silvermaster, will you stand and be sworn, please?
i)o you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 587
TESTIMONY OF NATHAN GREGORY SILVERMASTER
Mr. SxRiPLiNd. Mr. Silvermaster, are you accompanied by counsel?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Will counsel please rise? AVould you identify
A'ourself first, please?
Mr. Reix. David Rein, 1105 K Street, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Striplixg. Do vou desire counsel, Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. SiLATERMASTER. Yes, slr.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Rein is your counsel?
Mr. Silver:master. Mr. Rein is my counsel.
Mr. Striplixg. Is that agreeable with the chairman ?
]Mr. MuxDT. That is jierfectly all right.
Mr. SIL^T.RMASTER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to
read the prei^ared statement before this committee?
Mr. MuxDT. You will sometime during the course of the hearing,
that is correct. We want to identify you first as the witness, but you
will be given a chance to read the statement.
Mr. Striplixg. Will you state your full name?
Mr. Silvermaster. My full name is Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. Striplixg. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Sil%'ermaster. I was born in Odessa, Russia, in the year 1898.
Mr. Striplixg. What is your present address?
Mr. Sil^t:rmaster. My present address is Harvey Cedars, N. J.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we examine his state-
ment, that he submit his statement to the Chair at this time before
proceeding.
Mr. MtixDT. Very well.
(The statement was submitted and examined.)
Mr. JNliTXDT. The statement is perfectly pertinent to the inquiry
and may be read at the proper time.
Mr. Rankix. Let me call attention to a discrepancy there.
Mr. MuxDT. We will go into the discrepancies at a later time.
Mr. Striplixg. There is one portion I would like to call attention
to. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuxDT. I tliink we probably should take the statement as a
whole and not out of context. We had better wait until the proper
time.
Mr. Stripling. The witness indicates he is not going to testify, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. We will cross that bridge when we come to it. Pro-
ceed with the questioning. We will have the statement read at the
proper time.
Mr. Stripling. The chairman says you may read your statement at
the proper time and Ave will proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Silvermaster, you appeared before this committee on May 25,
]948, didyounot?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is correct.
^Ir. Stripling. In executive session.
Mr. Silatsrmaster. Executive session.
Mr. Stripling. At the conclusion of your testimony on that date
you were advised that the subpena which had been served upon you
calling for your appearance before the cemmittee was continued in
effect. Is that true?
588 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. You are appearing before the committee today by-
virtue of a telegram sent to you on August 2, 1948. which called for
your appearance before the committee on August 3, 1948?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first arrive in the United States, Mr.
Silvermaster ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER, III 1915.
Mr. Stripling. What was the port of entry ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Sail Francisco, Calif.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a brother by the name of Arkady Sil-
vermaster ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where does he reside ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Los Augeles.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a sister by the name of Pauline Wogg?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where does she reside at the present time ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ill Sail Francisco.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I aiii married.
Mr. Stripling. What was your wife's maiden name ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. My wife's maiden name was Helen Petrova
Witte.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, would you furnish the commit-
tee with your record of employment since your arrival in the United
States, in chronological order, insofar as possible, to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. May I read the statement at this point, Mr.
Chairman?
Mr. MuNnT. Not at this point. You may refer to any notes you
want to as far as answering that particular question is concerned.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I give a very brief summary of my employment
record with the Government in the statement. If the committee
wishes, I can elaborate on my employment record in general more
Mr. Stripling. Mr- Chairman, perhaps if he will give his em-
ployment record with the Federal Government and limit it to that,
that will be satisfactory.
Mr. MuNDT. Limit your answer to the employment witli the Federal
Government.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I began my employment with the Federal G(A'-
ernment in Aujjiist of 1985. I came to Washington to accept a posi-
tion with the Resettlement Administration, offered me by Dr. George
Mitchell, at that time Director of the Labor Division of the Resettle-
ment Administration. I was with the Resettlement Administration
in the capacity of labor economist from 1935 to around 1938, with
maybe some minor discrepancies as to dates. I do not recollect them,
but they will be close enough.
In 1938 or thereabouts, on the basis of a civil-service examination
at which I was one of the top candidates, I received employment with
the Maritime Labor Board and served as the chief economist for that
Board. In 1939 I transferred to the Farm Securitv Administration
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 589
to accept a position there as Director of the Labor Division of Farm
Security Achiiinistration, a position which I held from 1939 to 1944.
During this period for several months, between 1941 and 1942, 1 was
on the detail with the Board of Economic Warfare, where I helped to
or<ranize and to supervise the work of the Europe and Africa Division
of that organization.
I might mention that in the Farm Security Administration, Labor
Division, I was largely responsible for developing and organizing the
program for the migratory farm workers. That was the principal
work in Farm Security Administration.
During the war my principal effort there was in helping to solve
the problem of farm-labor transportation in order to overcome the
farm-labor shortages during that period.
In 1944 the work of the Labor Division of the Farm Security Ad-
ministration came near an end and I transferred to the Office of
Surplus Projierty, Consumer Goods Division, which at that time
was under the Procurement Division of the Treasury Department.
Soon after that, that Office of Surplus Property, Consumers Divi-
sion, was transferred from the Procurement Division of the Treasury
to the Commerce Division. There I held the post of chief economist
nnd Director of Market Research Division.
Later on this Office of Consumer Goods was transferred to the RFC
and still later to the War Assets Administration, where I was em-
ployed as Director of the Economic M-irket Research Division until
the time when I resigned my position with them in November, I believe
it was, of 1947.
That, in brief, is my employment record with the Government.
Mr. Strii'lixo. What have vou lieen doing since vou left the Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. SiLVKKMASTEK. Siucc I left the Government, for a while I did
nothing. Then I moved to Harvey Cedars, N. J., and have been
employed there, se]f-em])loyed, building houses.
Mr. Striplixo. Mr. Chairman, before proceeding any further, I
would like for the witness to read his statement.
Mr. ]\Ii"xi)T. Very well. Mr. Silvermaster, you-may read your state-
ment at this point.
Mr. Silvermaster. I shall read it in full.
Mr. MuxnT. You may read it in full without interruption.
Mr. SiEVER^i ASTER. Tluiuk you.
My name is Xathan Gregory Sjlvermaster and my present residence
is Harvey Cedars, N. J. I was born in Odessa, Russia, on November
27, 1898, and came to the United States in 1915. I was naturalized as
an American citizen in 1927.
I received the degrees of bachelor of arts from the University of
Washington in 1920 and doctor of jihilosophy (economics) from the
University of California in 1932. I was professor of economics at
St. Mary's (\)llege. Calif., from 1924 to 1930. In 1931 and 1932 I was
a member of the Governor's connnission on unemployment and later
was director of research and surA^eys of the California State Relief
Administration.
From 193;") to November 1940, I held various responsible positions
• with the Federal Government in the Resettlement Administration,
i Maritime Labor Board. Farm Security Administration, and Board of
Economic Warfare and tlie War Assets Administration.
590 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In these agencies I helped establish a program of camps for migra-
tory farm workers and promoted fair-labor relations in the construc-
tion and maritime industries. During World War II, I directed
studies of the enemy's economic potential and helped cut the flow of
strategic materials to Axis countries.
I am proud that in all the positions which I have held in tlie Federal
Government I have fought consistently for the interest of the American
people as a whole and particularly of farm and industrial labor. I
am especially pi'oud that during the war I w^as able to strike effective
blows in the Government service at our Fascist enemies.
Because I have never attempted to conceal my strong advocacy of the
rights of the underprivileged and of all New Deal principles, I have-
been constantly harassed by groundless accusations of disloyalty. I
was under investigation during almost my entire 12 years of Govern-
ment service. I Avas cleared by various agencies, including the Chief
of the Secret Service and Secretary of War Patterson, among others.
I left Government service late in 1946 because the harassment con-
tinued. Since then I have been investigated by the FBI and have
been the subject of a year- long investigation by the grand jury in
New York.
Neither the FBI nor the New York grand jury have taken any
action against me, although they heard the same witnesses as this
committee has produced and, I am certain, thoroughly investigated
the charges made against me by Elizabeth Bentley.
The charges made by Miss I3entley are false and fantastic. I can
oidy conclude that she is a neurotic liar. I am and have been a loyal
American citizen and was a faithful Government employee. I am not
and never have been a spy or agent of any foreign government.
I consider the proceedings which have gone on before this com-
mittee as a continuation of the harassment w^iich has plagued me and
interfered with my work and livelihood for years. I consider them
to be motivated by political considerations on the eve of a Presidential
election and the necessity to conceal from the American people the
failure of Congress to act upon such matters as housing and inflation.
If I committed a cnme, I should be indicted and prosecuted in the
courts. Without such indictment and prosecution, my reputation
should not be smeared.
In view of the continuance of the investigation by the New York
grand jury and the fact that this committee has indicated that it
intends to call for still another investigation before a so-called blue-
ribbon grand jury in the District of Columbia, I must protect myself
against this diabolical conspiracy. Upon advice of my counsel, I shall
stand upon the constitutional right of every American citizen and shall
refuse to testify further on matters relating to Miss Bentley's charges
in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimination
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, in listing your Government serv-
ice, I didn't notice that you made any reference to the Bretton Woods
Conference. Did you attend the Bretton Woods Conference in any
capacity ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What was the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 591
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I did not include this in my record because I
was not able to carry out the task that I was supposed to have done
there,
Mr. Stru'ling. What was the task you were supposed to have done I
Mr. Silvermaster. I went there upon the invitation of Mr. Harry D.
iVhite, who at that time was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury,
to help him to translate any documents that he may have had to deal
with submitted to him by the Russians.
It so happened that when I got there I had a very severe attack of
asthma. I stayed there for 2 days and only 1 day of the Conference
and returned back to Washington.
Mr. Streplixg. Mr. Silvermaster, are you now or have you ever been
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silver:\iaster. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds
which I have already stated.
Mr. MuxDT. Which grounds are those?
Mr. Silvermaster. On the ground that any statement I may make —
I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any answer I may
make to this question may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, do you know Earl Browder?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman^
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling asked a question.
Mv. Rankin. I understand, but he refused to answer the question of
whether or not he is a Communist on the ground that his answer
might incriminate him, which would indicate that his answer would
be, if he told the truth, that he was a Communist.
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Sir. Silvermaster, do you know Earl Browder?
]\lr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Jacob N. Golos ?
Mr. jNIundt. What do you mean by "the same grounds"? Kindly
explain which grounds.
^Ir. SiLX'ERMASTER. Oil the ground that any answer I may give
before this committee to questions asked may be self -incriminating, on
the ground that
Mr. MuNDT. That is a constitutional defense. Proceed.
Mr. Silvermaster. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Mundt. If you are going to use the constitutional defense, spell
it out and don't just say "same grounds."
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know Jacob Golos?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
]\Ir, IVIuNDT. I want you to explain the grounds each time you answer
the question.
Mv. SiLvERiM ASTER. Oil tlic grouiid that the answer to this question
may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. That is a satisfactory answer. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, do you know Gerhart Eisler?
Mv. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may make to this question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster. would you kindly turn around
and. Miss Bentle}^ would you please stand?
(Miss Bentley stands in audience.)
592 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
mg?
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley, who is stand-
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer the question on tlie ground
that any answer I may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. You are aware, Mr. Silvermaster, that Miss Bentley
lias made very serious charges against you before this committee. You
refuse to answer whether you even know her; is that correct?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is correct, sir. I refuse to answer this
question on the grounds that any answer I may give to this question
may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do'you know Solomon Adler?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds that any answer I may give to this question may be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions here
Mr. MuNDT. Proceed with your questions.
Mr. Stripling. I think if the record is made clear that when he says
"same grounds"' he means
Mr. MuNDT. I prefer to have him answer the question as the Chair
has indicated.
Mr. Stripling. Very well.
Do you know Lauchlin Currie?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may make to this question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss ^
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know" Frank V. Coe?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answ^er I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Glasser?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. SoniaGold?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. William J. Gold?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Joseph B. Gregg — fi-r-e-g-g?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that an}' answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 593
Mr. Snai'i.iXi;. Charles Kramer?
Mv. SiLVEK:yiASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the oround
that any answer I may irive to the question may tend to b3 self-
incriminatniir.
Mr. STRirLixG. Duncan C. Lee?
Ml-. S]l\kr:mastkr. I refuse to answer this question on the oround
that any answer I may jjive to the question may be self-incriminatinjji;.
Ml'. SrinrLixci. Harry MagdotJ'?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. .Stru'lixo. William W. llemington?
Mr. SiLVERjiASTER. I am sorry to say I have to refuse to answer
this question on the ground that any answer I may give to the question
may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Striplixg. ^laurice Halperin?
^Iv. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-iiicriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Alex Koral ?
^Ir. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
>[r. Striplixg. Did von ever furnish anv documents from Govern-
ment files to Elizabeth T. B?utley ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may tend to be self-in-
criminating.
■Mr. Ptriplixg. Did you have photographic equipment in the base-
ment of your home in Washington, D. C, for the purpose of photo-
gra'phing Government documents?
^Ir. SiLVERMAS'n:R. T refuse to answer on the ground that any answ^er
1 may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. I\Idx'dt. It is very difficult to see how the answer "no"' would be
self-incriminating as to that question, but we will accept the consti-
tutional defense.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mr. William Ullmann ?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I kuow Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. Striplixg. How well do you know Mr .Ullmann?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mr. Ullmannn has resided with me since 1937.
Mr. S'lRiPLTXG. Is Mr. ITUmann a member of the Communist Party?
]\Ir. SiLVTRMAi- Ti R. I ref use to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Striplixg. JNIr. Chairman, it is evident that the witness does
not intend to answer any questions which involve the evidence which
has been presented to the committee. After the committee has com-
pleted its questions of the witness, I should like for him to step aside
and place other witnesses on the stand.
Mr. MuNDT. The chairman w'ill call on the members of the com-
mittee for questions. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. I have no questions.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Raxkix\ Ml". Silvermaster, you refuse to answer these ques-
tions on the ground that if you did answer them, it would incriminate
you. That is correct; is it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I liave refused to answer these questions on
tliese grounds and explained the reason for taking this position in the
80408—48 7
594 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
statement ■which I made before this committee in my prepared state-
ment.
Mr. E.AXKIN. If you had committed no crime, your testimony would
not incriminate you. I have been a prosecuting attorney and I liave
never seen a man refuse to answer questions on the ground that they
would incriminate him except when he had committed a crime himself.
Mr. SiLM^RMASTFj!. I do uot loiow the legality of the situation, sir,
l)ut I do know that I have been under investigation for some alleged
crimes and these investigations have been going on for some time.
Mr. Rankin. You know the Communist Party is dedicated to the
overthrow of this Government; do you not?
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. I do uot kuow what the Communist Party is
dedicated — that the Communist Party is dedicated to the overthrow of
this Government.
Mr. Rankin. Weren't you a member of it?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I have already stated I refuse to answer this
([uestion, sir.
Mr. Rankin. If you are not a member of the Communist Party, then'
3'our answer would not incriminate you. This seems to be a storm
cellar that some of j'ou witnesses ti'y to use to keep from getting your-
selves cliarged with perjury. If you were not a member of the Com-
nuniist Party, it would certainly not incriminate you to say "No."
Xow, why do you refuse to answer that question ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I liave already given my reasons in the prepared
statement.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, you are afraid that if you answer
"No," we will prove you were a member and then you would be subject
to indictment for perjury. That is my construction.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Not uecessarily ; no.
Mr. Rankin. That is alL
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nixon, any questions?
JNIr. Nixon. Yes, I have a cpiestion on your statement, Mr. Silver-
juaster. You stated in the third paragraph from the last as follows:
The charges made by Miss Bentley are false and fantastic. I can only conclude
that she is a neurotic liar.
Now, you have indicated in previous questions that you would not
iinswer any question concerning whether you knew Miss Bentley on
the grounds that they might incriminate you, but in your statemen.t
here you have made the charge that Miss Bentley's charges are false
and fantastic and that she is a neurotic liar. On what do j^ou base
this conclusion ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I base this conclusion, sir, on reading the testi-
mony that was presented before this committee by this said person.
Mr. Nixon. Wliat facts do you have which would contradict that
testimony and which would allow you to make the charge that she is a
neurotic liar?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I am under no obligation. I am not asked to
contradict the testimony. There was no testimony presented; there
were allegations made.
Mr. NixoN. On what facts do you base your charge that she is a
neurotic liar which would contradict those allegations?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is the impression that the statements made
concerning me made upon me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 595
]\Ir. Nixox. You have made the coiichision in this j-tatenient that
i\Iiss Beiitley's charges are false and fantastic. Yon stated that out-
right, not as a supposition, but as a conclusion, and you stated that she
is a liar.
Now, I think that under the circumstances you shoidd indicate to
the committee in \yhat instances in Miss Bentley's testimony you con-
sider that she has made misstatements of fact and on what facts you
base this statement that she is a liar.
Mr. SiLVEKMASTEK. I luid the right to make the statement in the pre-
pared statement that I have made, and I shall reserve the right to
make further statements when any allegations she has made against
me are taken up in courts.
MV. Nixox. Mr. Silvermaster, Miss Bentley before this committee
cited certain facts concerning activities. You have stated that these
facts are false. You have the same right that she had to cite the facts
upon which you base the charge that her statements of facts are false.
"Will you indicate to the committee what facts in your knowledge
you have that would contradict the facts she has presented here in
her statement ''.
Mr. Silvermaster. I have stated my position in my prepared state-
ment. I refuse to answer questions pertaining to the charges made
against me.
JNIr. Xixc>x\ In other woi'ds, you have made the statentent that jMiss
Bentley 's statements ai'e false and yet you refuse to give any testimony
to indicate why they are false or in what
Mr. Silvermaster. I have stated the reasons, why I liave refused
to answer questions.
Mr. Nixox. Don't you fear that by making the statement as you have
in vour statement that Miss Bentley's charges are false that that mioht
mcrnnmate you 5
Mr. Silvermaster. No.
Mr. Nixox. You just a moment ago refused to answer any questions
concerning your activities with Miss Bentley. Now. either you knoAv
Miss Bentley or you don't; either you know these facts are true or
you don't.
You have indicated in your statement these facts are false, wliir-h
Avould indicate you have knowledge concerning Miss Bentley. Do
you want to retract the statement that her statements are false, or do
you want to state the facts?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer tlie question on the ground
that any statement I may make at this time may tend to be self-
incriminating because of the statement I have given in my prepai'ed
statement. This whole thing has been under investigation.
Mr. Striplixg. INIr. Nixon, in connection with your statement, I
should like to point out that Mr. Silvermaster was a Avitness before
our committee on May 25, at which time we did not know Miss Bent-
ley. had never heard of Miss Bentley. and he gave the same ansAvers
on that date to these questions as to whether or not he Avas a member
of the Communist Party and did he know this person and that person.
That was before Miss Bentley testified and before we even knew
Miss Bentley.
Mr. Nixox^ Mr. Chairman, in this connection I think that the state-
ment of the witness to the effect that Miss Bentley's charges are false
596 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and fantastic and that she is a liar should be stricken from the record.
I am not going to move that they be stricken from the record, for I
feel that under the circumstances the record will speak for itself, but
I think it is perfectly apparent that this witness is making this
charge — in other words, is willing to testify only on those facts that
would serve his own purposes and that his refusal to testify concern-
ing Miss Bent ley on other facts is because he realizes those would
incriminate him in fact.
I have no further questions.
Mr. Rankin. I would not agree to have any of these statements
stricken from the record because if the Department of Justice does its
duty, it will file a petition to cancel his citizenship and deport him
from this country. A man who comes here and refuses to answer
whether or not he is a Communist or whether or not he knows these
Communists Avho are plotting the overthrow of this Government has
no right to crawl into a storm cellar like that and ask the protection
of the Government of the United States.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Peterson, do you have any questions?
Mr. Peterson. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hebert, any questions?
Mr. Hebert. Yes.
Mr. Silvermaster, what year did you come to this country ?
Mr. Silvermaster. 1915.
Mr. Hebert. How old were you at that time ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Sixteen.
Mr. Hebert. Why did you come to this country ? What prompted
you to come to this country ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I came to this country in order to get an educa-
tion and because I wanted to become an American citizen.
Mr. Hebert. There were no educational facilities available in
liussia ?
Mr. Silvermaster. There were.
Mr. Hebert. Why couldn't you get your education in Russia?
Mr. Silvermaster. Because my secondary education I received in
an English school and because I did not want to live in Russia. I
wanted to come to the United States.
Mr. Hebert. Why didn't you want to live in Russia ?
Mr. Sil\termaster. Because I disliked the form of government
they had there.
Mr. Hebert. What form of government did they have at that time?
Mr. Silvermaster. They had an absolutist czarist government.
Mr. Hebert. In 1915?
Mr. Silvermaster. 1915.
Mr. Hebert. They had a czaristic government at that time, you
c
%
Mr. kSiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Would you have remained there if Lenin had been in
power and the Communists had taken over?
Mr. Silveriniaster. That is a question that I cannot answer. I had
no idea at the time wdiat government they would have in the future
•ind whether or not I would like or would not like that kind of govern-
ment. I had no basis.
Mr. Hebert. Do you like that form of government? Will that
incriminate you to tell me that?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 597
Mr. SiLVEHMASTEH. It wouldirt incriminate nie.
Mr. Hebert. Would you tell us whether you like the communistic
form of government?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. It is the kind of government they want to have.
]\Ir. Hebert. I asked you if you like the communistic form of
government.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I would like the kind of government we have
here.
Mr. Hebert. I didn't ask you that. Will it incriminate you to tell
me and tell this committee?
Ml". SiLVERMASTER. No.
Mr. Hebert. Yes or no — do you like the communistic form of gov-
ernment or don't you I
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I (lou't.
Mr. Hebert. You don't.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is riglit.
jMr. Hebert. Why don't you ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. It is a pretty long story, I suppose.
Mr. Hebert. Let's hear it.
Mr. SiLVER:srASTER. I haven't had an opportunity to live under a
communistic form of government, and it is very difficult for any indi-
vidual to say whether or not he would like a particular government
if he liasn't had any experience with it.
]Mr. Hebert. Do you like what it stands for? You know what it
stands for. You are an educated man.
Mr. Sil^t:rmaster. It all depends on what you mean by "what it
stands for." Every government stands for many things.
Mr. HiiBERT. I will tell you my appreciation of them and see if you
agree.
My appreciation of what the Communists stand for is the destruc-
tion of the free enterprise system of government, the destruction of
caj)italism, the capitalistic system, and the destruction of all religion
and churches, and the establishment of a complete totalitarian form
of government in Avhich the dignity of the individual is violated and
under which no man has an opportunity to advance himself on his own
and in which everything that is repulsive and indignant to what we
in America believe.
That is my conception and appreciation of communism, and I think
it is the general conception of the Communist form of government.
Do you believe in it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No, I dou't. My whole attitude to this question
would be somewhat different from yours for the simple reason
i\Ir. Hebert. I want to know what you think about it.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I ouly liavc in mind one kind of government, and
that is the kind of government they have in Russia today. That kind
of g vernnent you h:ive in Russia was born as the result of certain
events. That kind of government in Russia today was born as the
result of certain events. These events pertain only to that particu-
lar country and that kind of government came into being in response
to the conditions there and developments there.
Now, whether the answer that the present Government gave to the
problem of the Russian peo])le is good or bad is something I am not
in a position to evaluate. I am not living there, but I want to point
598 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
out, the point I want to make is that the Government they have there
was a result of certain historic conditions, which historic conditions
did not obtain in this country.
I know, for example, that there has been terrific dissatisfaction
among the common people of Russia with the czarist regime. There
has been starvation, there has been oppression, and as a result of these
conditions certain things happened which produced the revolution
which led to the establishment of a certain type of govermnent, which
may or may not have solved the problems.
Mr, Hebert. You say you left Russia in 1915. Russia was at war.
Why weren't }■ ou in the army ?
Mr. SiLVER3iASTEK. I was too youug to be in the army at the time.
As a matter of fact, I was in China at the time, in Shanghai.
Mr. Hebert. You weren't in Russia?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. In 1915.
Mr. Hebert. You say when you left in 1915 ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; 1 wasu't in Russia proper, no. I was at-
tending school. My parents were living at the time in the Far East.
]\Ir. Hebert. How long had you been in China at that time?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. My folks from the year 190G to the time I left
lived in the Far East — in the Russian part of the Far East, Man-
churia, and in 1912 I was sent to school in Shanghai, to an English
school.
Mr. Hebert. When?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 1912. Froui 1912 to 1915, but every summer 1
would go back home for vacation, so that my legal residence was
Harbin, which at that time was under Russian domination; so I re-
ferred to it as part of Russia. Actually I sailed from Shanghai and
not Harbin because Harbin is not a port.
Mr. Hebert. During this time did you participate in any revolu-
tionary movements in Russia?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I was toD youug to participate in any movement.
Mr. Hebert. In Russia — when did you become an American citizen ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ill 1927.
Mr. Hebert. Where?
Mr. Silverjiaster. San Francisco.
Mr. Hebert. You had been here 12 years at that time ?
Mr. Silvj:rim aster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And you say that you did not participate in any
movement heie in this country of communistic leaning?
Mr. Silver:master. I didn't say that.
Mr. Hei'.ert. What did you say?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. You asked me wuth reference to the things that
I had done in Russia.
Mr. Hebert. I am asking you about America.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. If I participated — I have already given you
the answer. I will refuse to answer any question of this or similar
character.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, you are perfectly willing to discuss
before this committee any subject matter that might not incriminate
you. but you refuse to discuss anything which will tend to incriminate
you?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 599
Mr. SiLVERMAs'iER. I wiU refui^e to discuss anytliinjj;- which iiiay have
a bearinoon the things that have been under investigation by the grand
jury and the FBI concerning myself.
^fr. Herert. ^Vhv did vou refuse to testify before the committee
Avhen you first appeared as directed by Mr. Stripling? You were not
before the grand jury at that time, were you ?
^Ir. SiLVERMASTER. For the same reasons.
Mr. Hebert. You were not before the grand jury at that time?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. ]My case was before the grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. It was before the grand jury?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Certainly.
Mr. Hebert. And the grand jury is still meeting on your case,
isn't it?
IVIr. SiLVERMASTER. As far as I know.
jNIr. Hebert. As far as you know, then, it is not a closed case?
iVIr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And the mere fact tliat you have not been indicted
as of this time does not indicate you are innocent of the charges made
by Miss Bentley ; is that correct ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. ]\Ir. Silvermaster, I have just a question or two.
Are you a lawyer ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You are not an attorney?
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. No, Sir.
Mr. INIuNDT. I am not a lawyer either, so I w^onder if as one layman
to another you could explain to me how it would be self -incriminat-
ing for you to tell this committee that you did not have photographic
apparatus in your basement in which Government documents were
photogra])hed for delivery to a Russian spy ring. If the answer were
no to that question, how would it incriminate you?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuow law.
]Mr. jMuxdt. I don't know law either.
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. I liave vei'y little understanding about it, but
I understand the chai'ges, allegations, or charges, under which the
grand jury was deliberating involve conspiracy matters and that con-
spiracy matters are so broad that anything may be included in it,
any fact that you may know or not know about may somehow^
Mr. MuxDT. Just between a couple of fellows wdio are not law-
yers, how would it be incriminating to a man who had been charged
with having photographic apparatus in his basement and working
through the night taking pictures of Government documents to trans-
mit to New York? It is asked whether you have that photographic
apparatus in your basement and you say, "I don't dare tell you because
it might incriminate me." How would it incriminate you if you said,
'T don't have anvthing like that, of course not"? How would that
incriminate you ?
Mr. SiL^T2RMASTER. Sir, the FBI have investigated me. They have
come to my house and they have ask.ed me a lot of questions and I
hav^^ answered their questions in full. lender normal circumstances
that was the proper thing to do. I haven't hesitated for a moment to
600 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
answer them, all the questions that were asked me. But soon after
that somethin^i else hapj^ened.
Mr. MuNDT. What happened then ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I mean
Mr. MuNDT. The grand jury?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. The whole thin<r began to assume the character
of a conspiracy against me almost to the point of looking like a pos-
sible frame-up, for all I knew.
Mr. MuNDT. A conspiracy by the FBI?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuoAV by whom. I don't say that.
Mr. Mltndt. Not by us; not a conspiracy by this committee?
Mr. SiLVER^kiASTER. Of coiu'se not.
Mr. Mundt. When you appeared before the grand jury up in New
York. I presume they asked you questions, and T wondered if you
used your constitutional defense there to say, 'T won't give you any
information because it might incriminate me."
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer this question on the ground
that anything I may sav may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Mundt. It wouldn't be very informative to the grand jury if
that is all you told them,
Mr. McDowell. IVIr. Chairman.
Mv. ;Mundt. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDow'ELL. Mr. Silvermaster, you w^ent to Bretton Woods to
act as an interpreter and you were overcome with asthma and didn't
act ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. McDowell. Were there no official interpreters there at Bretton
Woods?
Mr. SiLATRMASTER. There probably were.
Mr. McDowell. Were you an official interpreter?
Mr. Sil\t!:rmaster. No ; I was not an official interpreter.
jNIr. McDowtsll. Why would Mr. White decide to have some person
in excess of the ordinary number of interpreters?
Mr. Siiat'^rmaster. As I understood it at the time, the Treasury did
n.ot have an interpreter.
Mr. McDowell. The Treasury?
Mr. Sil\t.rmaster. The Treasury Department. The interpreter was
provided by the State Department.
Mr. McDow^ELL. And they decided to take you ?
Ml'. SiLVERMASTER. They decided to take me and not only because of
my knowledge of Russian, but also because of my knowdedge of eco-
nomic matters. I am an economist.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Silvermaster, would it offend your constitu-
tional sensibilities if I inquired if you had any knowledge of photo-
gra])hic equipment ? Do you know how to operate it ? Do you have
any skill in it?
iVIr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer the question.
Ml. McDowell. That is all.
Mr. Mundt. IVIr. Silvermaster, I have one more question which I
don't think you will find embarrassing. It is a matter of straightening
out the record.
When you talked to the FBI and the FBI talked with you, you were
not then testifvinc; under oath. Is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 601
Mr. SiLVKH.AiAsTKK. I beg your pardon?
Mr. MuNDT. When yon testified to the FBI and talked to the FBI,
jon were not testifying nnder oath?
INfr. SiiA'KioiAsTEK. That is riglit.
Mr. MuNDT. You were not then testifying under oatli before the
FBI ?
Ml'. Sii.vnuMAs'i'KK. Xo, sir.
]\Ir. 8tkiplix(j. I have one more question.
In your statement. ]Mr. Silvermaster, you say:
I was cleared b.v various agencies, iuclnding the Chief of the Secret Service
and Secretary of War I'atterson, among otliers.
Why was Secretary Patterson called upon to clear yon. Were you
ever assigned to the War Department?
Mr. Silvp:rmastkk. I would be very glad to submit to this commit-
tee this particular case and the letter from Secretary Patterson con-
cerning the case.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you have that letter with you?
Mr. Silvermaster. I have that letter.
Mr. Hebert. That won't tend to self-incriniinate you, will it — the
submission of Mr. Patterson's letter ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I am submitting the letter, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That won't tend to self-incriminate you, will it?
Mr. Silver^iaster. This question is a matter of job record.
^Ir. Hebert. Tliat letter clears you and won't tend to incriminate
you, will it?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is a job record, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That will clear you and won't incriminate you. Is that
why you answer it ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I have not refused to answer anything on the
job record.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we have been endeavoring to get this
letter for a long time.
Mr. Silvermaster, will you tell me whether Mr. Lauchlin Currie
went to see Mr. Patterson in your behalf ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes. As a matter of fact, the case called for
action on my i)art to get justice, and I have asked people to request
that Secretary Patterson look into accusations made against me per-
sonally because those accusations were false, untruthful, and I didn't
want my name to be besmirched. I have every right to ask whoever
I could for this assistance. I didn't ask to be cleared. I only asked
that someone with an unbiased mind look into my record and develop
whether or not the accusations made against me at that time were or
were not true.
Mr. Stripling. You w^ere assigned to the Board of Economic War-
fare?
Mr. Sila'ermaster. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Stripling. And on the pay roll of the Farm Security Admin-
istration ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes. sir.
jSIr. Stripling. Did Military Intelligence make an objection to your
employment with the Board of Economic AVarfare?
Mr. Silvermaster. I think it was Xaval Intelligence.
]\Ir., Stripling. They asked your removal?
602 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. They asked for my removal.
Mr. Stripling. You tlien went to Laiichlin Ciirrie?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. They wrote a letter — and I have the correspond-
ence of this letter. They wrote a letter concernino- me which indicates
that I should not be — that I am a Connnunist — that I am this or that —
and that, therefore, I should not be entrusted with work with the
Board of Economic Warfare.
Obviously, a'letter of this sort was an insultin<T letter to me. It was
a smear letter, it was not justified, and I asked for an investigation.
I asked the Board of Economic Warfare to take this matter up with
the AVar Department. The intelligence communication was trans-
ferred to the Board of Economic Warfare by the War Department,
by Xaval Intelligence.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stone, of the Board of Economic Warfare, gave
3'()u a copy of the Xaval Intelligence protest against y<ni '.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. He gave it to you ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You answered that report yourself?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I auswcrcd the report.
Mr. Stripling. You yourself answered it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Where was your report submitted?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Submitted to Mr. Stone.
Mr. Stripling. What did ]Mr. Stone do with it ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuow. I dou't really recall now.
Mr. Stripling. What is Mr. Stone's first name ? '
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't recall now. I believe William.
Mr. Stripling. What was his position?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. He was Assistant Administrator of the Board
of Economic Warfare, who had jurisdiction over the Division I was
connected Avith.
Mr. Stripling. William T. Stone?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I aiii not sure ; I believe so.
Mr. Stripling. Did Secretary Patterson ever ask you whether oi-
not you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; he did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did Lauchlin Currie ask j'ou whether you were a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; he did not.
Mr. McDowell. You went to Mr. Currie to get him to write a letter
to Secretary Patterson?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McDowell. You went to Mr. Currie to get him to write a letter
to Secretary Patterson?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No. All I did was to ask Mr. Currie if he could
get somebody in the War Department to make an unbiased investiga-
tion of the accusations made against me.
Mr, McDowell. Did you ao to anybodv else ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ycs ; I have asked Mr. Baldwin.
Mr. McDowell. Who?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mr. Baldwin, of the Farm Security Adminis-
tiation.
COMMUNIST i:SPIONAGE 603
Uv. McDowell. Would that be C. B. Baldwin?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. C. B. Baldwiii. He was my boss in the Farm
Security Administration.
Mr. Stripling. These gentlemen, I presume, were both your friends?
jVIr. SiLyERMASTER. I had known them both.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. How long?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. For quite a long while.
INIr. McDowell. How long haye you known Mr. Currie ?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I liaye known Mr. Currie since, I belieye, 1938
or 1939.
Mr. jSIcDowell. I haye no further questions.
Mr. Striplixo. Mr. JNIcDowell, the witness preyiously refused to
answer that he knew Mr. Currie, on the ground that it might in-
criminate him.
Mr, SiLyERMASTER. I haye answered this because it had a direct
relationship to my job record.
Mr. Rankin. I haye a question or two. Who did you say issued
that recommendation that 3'ou be remoyed?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I bcg your pardon?
Mr. Rankin. Who did you say issued that recommendation that
you be remoyed ?
INIr. SiLyERMASTER. The recommendation, as I recall it. for remoyal
came from Nayal Intelligence.
Mr. Rankin. And gaye as its reasons that you were a Communist?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. It didn't giye reasons. It merely gaye alle-
gations.
Mr. Rankin. Allegations that you were a Communi.st ?
(Mr. Silyermaster nods head affirmatiyely.)
Mr. Rankin. And that yo>i were a member of the Communist
Party — did it make that allegation?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I dou't haye the letter before me.
Mr. Rankin. You said in response to Mr. Stripling's question that
(he statements made in that recommendation were false, didn't you?
Mr, SiLyERMASTER. In that letter ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, when that letter accused you of being
a Communist — is that what you haye reference to ?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Why should you refuse to answer the question now
whether or not you are a member of the Communist Part}"?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. Because I refuse. There are different circum-
stances.
Mr. Rankin. I don't think it is a different subject. I think it is
a different storm cellar.
Mr. MuNDT. Any other questions?
Mr. Peterson. You stated that they furnished you a copy of the
lettP'' that Xayal Intelligence had written to them.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right, sir.
Mr. Peterson. Who furnished you a coj^y of that letter?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mv. Stoue.
Mr. Peterson. Mr. Stone gaye you a co|)y of the letter ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Of the charges against me; yes.
j\Ir. MuNDT. Haye we any further identification of ]Mr. Stone?
604 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. STKirLixG, William T. Stone, Assistant Administrator of the
Board of Economic Warfare. Do yon know if he is in the State De-
partment now?
Mr. SiLVERMASTEK. I don't know.
Mr. MuxDT. Is he in the Government now ?
Mr. Stripling. I think he is with the Voice of America.
Mr. Nixon. Will 3'on listen to this qnestion carefully, because it
bears upon the accnracy of yonr statements? Yon said the charges
made by Miss Bentley are false. One of the charges made by Miss
Bentley was that yon maintained a photograj^hic laboratory in your
home. Do you mean by yonr statement that that charge is false?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 1 rcfuse to answer, sir, this question, on the
ground that I have stated in m}' prepared statement and for the reasons
I have given in my prepared statement.
Mr. Nixon. I think the record on tliat point speaks for itself.
Mr. Stripling. jNIay I ask the witness to step aside?
Mr. MuNDT. Before the witness steps aside, the chairman wants to
make a short statement to the witness.
You are a man of considerable intelligence and a long educational
background. I think you must realize that coming before this com-
mittee, refusing to answer specific questions such as this one about the
photographic apparatus in your basement, which can either be or not
be substantiated by the testimony of witnesses — refusing to answer
that, which plays a key part in this whole hearing, on the ground that
il is self-incriminating, and refusing to do so because you are testify-
ing before us under oath, where all the laws of perjury apply, and
saying you have talked freely with the FBI, where there is no law of
})erjury applying — that puts you in a very bad light ; and I wonder
if, in consideration of those facts, you would not like to tell us the
answer to these direct questions — not whether or not you are a Com-
munist but wdiether or not you did maintain in your basement photo-
graphic apparatus for the purpose of photographing Government
documents.
Would you like to reconsider your answer, Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Silvermaster. My answer will be the same as I have given in
my prepared statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Very well ; you may step aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Stripling. I will call Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley.
Mr. Mundt. Miss Bentley, will you stand and be sworn? Raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
tlie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MISS ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you have previously been identified
before this committee.
In the testimony w^hich you gave last Saturday, you stated that an
individual by the name of N. Gregory Silvermaster was the head
of a group within the Government that was collecting information
[
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 605
Avhich tliey turned over to you, and you in turn turned over to Mr.
Jacob N. Golos, and which information eventually was turned over
to an agent of the Soviet (Tovernnient.
Is the person who just left the witness stand the N. Gregory Silver-
master that you knew?
Miss Bentley. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Stripltxo. At the hearing the other day the committee did not
have sufficient time to go into detailed associations in connection with
yourself and Mr. Silvermaster. Would you tell the committee now
how well you knew Mr. Silvermaster, how many times you saw him,
whether or not you ever were a guest in his home ?
Miss Benti.ey. 1 originally met Mr. Silvermaster and Mrs. Silver-
master in July of 1941, and I came to Washington approximately
every 2 weeks from that date on until the end of September 1944;
so that I don't know exactly how many times that makes.
Added to which, whenever Mr. Silvermaster or Mrs, Silvermaster
came to New York, which may have been three or four times a year,
I also saw theui in New York.
Mr. Striplixg. You came to Mr. Silvermaster's home for the pur-
pose of collecting information?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Stkii'lix(}. Which he had obtained from these people in the
Government ?
Miss Bextley. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Striplixg. You also obtained from him certain Communist
Party dues?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Striplixg. That you transmitted to New York?
Miss Bex^tley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever spend the night in INIr. Silvermaster's
home ?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I think three or four or five times, when it was
quite late, when I finished talking to them, and it was impossible to
get a taxicab or bus back to town, I stayed overnight in their house;
yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mrs. Silvermaster well ?
Miss Bextley. Very well.
Mr. Striplixg. Is Mrs. Silvermaster a Communist ?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Mr. Ullmann?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I do. He was residing with the Silvermas-
ters at the time I met him.
Mr. Striplixg. That was William L. Ullmann?
Miss Bextley. That is William Ludwig Ullman.
Mr. Striplixg. Was his nickname "Lud"?
Miss Bextley. Yes. I always called him "Lud'"; and I called Mr.
Silvermaster, ' Greg"'; and Mrs. Silvermaster, Helen.
Mr. Striplixg. Could you give the committee some details regarding
the photographic equipment maintained in Mr. Silvermasters base'^
ment and whether or not ^Ir. Ullmann had anything to do with it?
Miss I^extley. Yes. They had set up in the basement a home-made
apparatus for photographing documents, for microfilming documents,
in their cellar, which had ])een. I understand, put together by Mr.
606 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Ullmaiiii, who is quite clever as a mechanic, and had a rack on the top
which the camera was stuck into and pointed down, and they had
a rack in tlie bottom where the papers were put in.
Mr, MuNDT. You actually saw" them using this apparatus on Gov-
ernment documents, did you ?
Miss Bentlet. Yes ; I did.
Mr. MuNDT. And Mr. Ullmann has seen it, has he?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Ullmann was the principal photographer. It
was he who learned photography when it became necessary to photo-
graph documents, and it was he who operated it, except for those
times when he Avas either away or when there was too much to be clone
by one person alone.
At that time ]Mrs. Silvermaster also learned photography and helped
him with it.
ISlv. MuxDT. Ydu have seen Mr. Silvermaster in the basement of
his home watching this apparatus photographing Government docu-
ments ?
Miss Bentley. Not Mr. Silvermaster. I was in the basement with
Mr. Ullmann and Mrs. Silvermaster while Mr. Silvermaster was up-
stairs. It was not thought wise for everyone to be in the basement
sinniltaneously.
Mr. STKirLiNG. When Mr. Ullmann's name was mentioned Saturday,
we did not have his employment record. I would like to put it in
the record.
Mr. MuNDT. You maj^ read it.
Mr. Stkiplixg. William L. Ullmann, Government Form 57, executed
by the above individual on April 4, 1946, reflects that he was born
in Springfield, Mo., on August 14, 1908, that the form was executed
by William Ullmann upon his return from the United States Army
reauesting employment in the United States Treasury Department.
He resigned from his position in the Division of Monetary Research
as of']\Iarch 21. 1947, to enter private industry. The records indicate
his address as 5515 Thirtieth Street NW., telephone Emerson 6720.
This, Mr. Chairman, is the same address as Nathan Gregory Silver-
master.
He listed his immediate supervisor as Frank V. Coe, Director of
Monetary Research. His references on the aforementioned form were
Mr. Harry W. Blair, lawyer. Tower Building, Washington, D. C. ;
Lauchlin Currie, International Development Co., 19 Rector Street^
New York; Henrietta Klotz, 285 Madison Avenue, New York City,
assistant to the ex-Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Morgenthau. Mrs.
Klotz was Mr. Morgenthau's personal secretai-y.
His employment record is as follows : July 1932, to August 1934,
Ullmann Bros., real estate business, Springfield, Mo.; September
1934 until January 1935, salesman for ]\Iacy Bros., New York City,
receiving $15 a week; Januar}^ 1935 to March 1935, Central Tennis
Supplies, New York City, owner of business; April 1935 to June
1935, NRA Consumers Advisory Board, Washington, D. C, receiving
$2,000 per year, inunediate supervisor, Mrs. Emily Newell Blair;
July 1935 to February 1939, Farm Security Administration, starting
salary $2,000 per annum, ending salary $3,800 per year; February
1939 to October 1942, Treasury Department, Division of Monetary
Research, Washington, D. C, immediate supervisor, Harry D. White;
COMMUNIST ESPIOiSrAGE 607
October 194:2 to October 1945, United States Army, dischtir<;cd us !i
major, serial number 0-r>79514.
Education: Harvard University, Cambi'idge, Mass., Octol)er \^-2()
(o June 1927: Diiiry Colleoe. Springfield, Mo., October 1927 to Jur.e
1980; Harvard School of Business Administration, ()ctcb3r 1980 to
June 1932.
Mr. MuNDi\ Mr. Stripling, do you have any papers there show-
ing the references that Mr. Silvermaster had when he secured employ-
ment with the Government ?
Mr. Stripling. Mv. Chairman, we have endeavored to secure his
file from the Archives but it is not there. We are trying to locate it.
Mr. MuxDT. You mean the file has disappeared ?
Mr. STiurLiNG. I beg your pardon?
* ]\Ir. MuNDT. You say the file has disappeared ?
]Mr. Stripling. That is true ; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Disapi^eared from where?
Mr. Stripling. Archives.
Mr. McDowell. Whose archives?
Mr. Stripling. National Archives.
Mr. MuNDT. Where it should properly be kept ?
]VIr. JNIcDowELL. Oh !
Mr. MuNDT. What defense does the Archivist give his loss of the
files of Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. Stripling. Well, they advised Mr, Wheeler, the investigator
who went to the Archives, that they were the custodians of all the
files of the Board of Economic Warfare and FEA, but that Mr. Silver-
master's file was not there. Other individuals who were employed in
the agency, their files were there, but not Mr. Silvermaster's.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you keep our investigators at work until they
locate the files or the man who let them get away ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir. Further information in the file of Mr.
Ullmann refiects that Thomas E. Blaisdell, Jr., Securities and Ex-
change Commission, was interviewed January 12, 1939, in a routine
investigation conducted by the Treasury Department, and stated:
"I don't know Mv. Ullmann. My impression is he is a forward-
looking and fairly able person."
That is all we have on Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. Nixon. That state'ment was by whom?
Mr. Stripling. Thomas E. Blaisclell, Jr.
Mr. Nixon. In regard to Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Ullmann ?
Miss Bentley. I met Mr. Ullmann, I think, toward the end of July
1941, shortly after I made the acquaintance——
Mr. Stripling. What did you learn of his background?
Miss Bentley. I had learned that he came from an upper-class
family out in, I believe, Missouri; that he had never had a tre-
mendously big position until he met the Silvermasters, but he liad had
various positions — I understand he was a tennis professional and gave
tennis lessons at one time and had other sorts of jobs until he came
lo Washington, and I believe the Silvermasters met him when he was
employed by the Treasury.
608 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Their description of his job at that time was that of a clerk. I don't
Ifnow if that was the tj'pe of work he did.
The Silvermasters entertained a great deal and frequently had
parties at their home, and I understand that someone, I don't know
who, brought Mr, Ulhnann to one of these parties. He made the ac-
quaintance of the Silvermasters. They discovered that he was a very
able person, very intelligent person, in spite of the position that he
was then holding in the Treasury, and they thought that he would be
a very good prospect for pushing on up in the Government where he
could be useful.
Therefore, according to them, anyway, through their efforts Mr.
UUmann was pushed from job to job until he got into some quite
important ones.
He also came to live with them as a boarder and had a room witlv
them, and I believe ate most of his meals with them.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, in your discussions with Mr. and
Mrs. Silvermaster, did either one of them ever tell you that they were
acquainted with Earl Browder?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they did.
Mr. Stripling. Did they tell you the circumstances under which
they met Earl Browder?
Miss Bentley. I don't know exactly when Gregory Silvermaster
met Mv. Browder, but I know when ^Irs. Silvermaster did. I believe
that Mr. Silvermaster had known Earl Browder prior to the general
strike in San Francisco in the early thirties. Was that 1933 or 1934,
along in there? Eai'l Browder had come to San Francisco because of
the strike, and tlie vigilantes at that time were looking for him in a
house-to-house search, and Mr. Browder came to the Silvermasters'
home, where he w'as greeted by Mrs. Silvermaster, who hadn't met
him, and he asked for sanctuary.
Slie didn't recognize him and was frightened and refused to let
him in until her husband had returned home and identified him. Then
they hid him out in tlieir house for several days while the vigilantes
were looking for him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Avhether or not Nathan Gregory Sil-
\ermaster was personally acquainted with Jacob N. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I do; and I believe their acquaintance dated
back at least to the early thirties because he knew Mr. Golos' wife and
their son, and I believe that their acquaintance, although interrupted
several times, was quite a deep one.
Mr. Stripling. At any time when you were at ^Ir. Silvermaster's
home here in Washington did you meet an individual l)y the name of
George Silverman ?
Miss Bentley. I would hardly call it meeting. I Avas sitting in the
kitchen, Mr. Silverman had come in the front door with some material
and was leaving by the kitchen door, and he went past very hurriedly.
I was introduced by some name, I do not recall, as being a friend of
Mrs. Helen Silvermaster, and he went out the kitchen door.
Mr. Stripling. Did any discussion ensue among the Silvermasters
and yourself regarding Mv. Silverman's visit and what his business
was?
Miss Bentley. Yes. They said that as usual he had come to bring
material and they were quite u])set that I was there. Usually, you
see, they kept their house clear the night I was coming there because
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 609
they didn't \vant luo to meet other members of the group, and particu-
larly George Silverman was extremely nervous and they said if he
realized Avho I was, he would probably fall to pieces — I believe Avas
the expression they used.
Therefore, they felt that if he had to see me in the kitchen, it was
better to pass me off as a friend of Helen Silvermaster's and gloss over
the situation.
Mr. STRirLiNG. Did they indicate to you that Mr. Silverman was
quite concerned with Avhat he was engaged in?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they said he was very much concerned over it.
Mr. Stripling. During this period that 3^011 acted as courier and
that this information was being furnished to you. were you all very
apprehensive or what was your altitude?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I would say every one of us was.
Mr. Stripling. Did you sus})ect surveillance was being kept on you?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you take precautions?
Miss Bentley. Definitely.
Mr. INIuNDT. Miss Bentley, while the investigator is gathering his
notes, I want to find out from you as complete a list as possible of
])eople who actually have seen this photographic apparatus in the
basement of ISIr. Silvermaster. Will you list them for us, the people
who should be able to testify under oath that it was there.
Miss Bentley. Mr. Gregory Silvermaster, Mrs. Gregory Silver-
master, Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. MuNDT. Just those three besides yourself ?
Miss Bentley. I can definitely say only those three. It is possible
that one or two others may, but not to my knowledge.
^Ir. McDowell. If they were all apprehensive about all these goings
on, how come thej^ took you down and showed j^ou this business?
Miss Bentley. I only went down there just once, toward the end
of the time I knew them, and they had not taken me down before
because they thought it would be bad if someone found me and the
apparatus simultaneously. But I had asked them about it. I was
very curious about it, and they took me down one evening to show me,
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Chairman. I would like for this witness to step
aside at this time. I doii't want to go into these other individuals.
Mr. Hep.ert. May I ask a question ?
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hebert.
]Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, this time you say they took you down
to see the photographic set-up downstairs and that they didn't want
you to be discovered with the photographic equipment — what did they
say that would give you that impression? What was j'our conversa-
tion?
Miss Bentley. They had been constantly saying each time I was
there or every so often that they did not think it was a good idea for
me to be down in the basement, and not a good idea for all of us to be
down there simultaneously.
Mr. Hebert. What I am trying to get from you is v.hat did they
say? Not your words, but their language. What did they say ? Did
they say, "Helen,"' or whatever they called you, "we have got some
80408 — 48 8
610 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
photog-raphic equipment .doAviistairs for the purpose of pliotograph-
mp: these docunrents and we don't want you down there T'
Miss Bextley. Nothing ^vas ever put that plainly in espionage.
They merely said it was not a wise thing; it is taking chances.
Mr. Hebekt. Not a wise thing, taking chances, doing what?
Miss Bentley. That was understo(xl, that we did not take extra
chances.
Mr. PIebeut. Doing what? How do you know there was a photo-
graphic set-up down there?
Miss Benti>ey. I had known it ever since it was set up.
Mr. Hekekt. Who told you?
Miss Benteey. Mr. Ullmann and the Silvermasters told me origi-
nally when they set it up.
Mr. Hebert." What did they tell you?
Miss Bextley. They told me they had set up this apparatus in the
basement to photograph documents.
Mr. Hebert. They told you they had set up photographic equipment
to photograi)h these documents?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. You w^ere down there on one occasion only ?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Describe that equijiment to us.
Miss Bentley. It is rather dilhcidt because I don't know too nuich
about photographic apparatus, but any photographer could describe
it better.
^Ir. Hi^:BERT. Did they have pans with acid?
Miss Bentley. They were photographing only and not developing
the films.
Mr. Hebert. The microfilms, the little ones?
Miss Bentley. They had a Contax camera. Without drawing it I
don't know how to describe it.
Mr. Hebert. These documents you handed them to photograph ; did
you witness them photographing the documents?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What were those documents?
Miss Bentley. I can't tell you which particular ones they Avere
photographing. They had a whole stack.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you look at some of them?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Hebert. Your curiosity was not aroused, that you didn't look
at these secret documents?
Miss Bentley. I only looked at them when they asked me. That
was one of the principles. You didn't want to know.
Mr. Hebert. You looked only when they asked you?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert, When did they ask you ?
Miss Bentley. Many times we would go through the documents and
see which I felt were important enough to be photographed. You
have so much film and have to be economical with it, and we were
therefore going through these stacks of documents to see which ones
we thought would be valuable.
Mr. Hebert. It was on 3'our judgment?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 611
Miss Bentley. Not entirely. In lots of matters I dichrt know
enough about the material to jndoe, and I took their word for it, but
it some cases they took my word.
Mr. Hebert. These documents ; were they statistical reports on writ-
ten letters or interoffice communications or memoranda?
Miss Bentlet. All sorts of things. They were letters; they were
production statistics, airplane statistics; they were practically every
type of document.
Mr. Hebert. Did they have any stamp on them marked secret or
confidential?
]\Iiss Bentley. Some were marked secret and some confidential.
Mr. Hebert. You saw the stamp on them?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. AIcDowELL. Miss Bentley, in your conversations about this
photographic equipment, was it ever indicated where the other end of
this stuff was — where they were developed ? Would it be New York,
INIoscow, or would you have any idea ?
Miss Bentley. Originally when they were making — I should say
l^ack at the end of 11)41 or possibly 1942 when they were doing not too
much photographic work, ]ust starting, they developed their own film
when they took three or four rolls.
When the bulk increased it was obviously impossible for them to
j)hotograph and develop. It took too much time. They were told
to give me the film as it was without being developed and I would take
it to New York.
Yes. it was discussed, because they often asked me how the film
came out and whether or not it had taken well, because in many cases
they had carbon copies, which I understand are rather difficult to
photograph well.
^Ir. McDowell. Would you have any idea where the other .enc^ of
tliis was? Did you see the films after they were developed in New
York, ever ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not. They were turned over to a Russian
contact. He told me they were developed in this country and he
would tell me whicli ones were bad and which good so we could dupli-
cate them if one didn't turn out.
Mr. McDowell. Sometimes you would be tolcl to do it again?
]\riss Bentley. If it €ould be obtained again, we did- Sometimes
that document was passing through somebody's desk and wouldn't
return and they couldn't grab it, and sometimes it went to a file.
]Mr. McDowell. It was absolutely sure that there was another unit
of this spy ring, somebody in New York developing these pictures?
Miss Benti.ey.. I don't know what you mean by a unit, but it Avas
probably the Russian consulate or Russian Embassy.
Mr. :^icDow^ELL. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. You may step aside.
Mr. Stripling, call your next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell.
Mr. INIuNDT. INIr. Russell, will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be -
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Russell. I do.
612 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. ETJSSELL
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, will you state your full name.
Mr: Russell. Louis J. Russell.
Mr. Stripling. You are an investigator for the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Russell, I am.
Mr. Stripling. When were you appointed?
Mr. Russell. May 15, 1945.
Mr. Si rifling. Are 3'ou a former FBI agent?
Mr. Russell. I am.
Mr. Stripling. How long were 3^011 with the FBI ?
Mr. Russell. For 10 years.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with your duties as an investigator
for the Committee on Un-American Activities, were you instructed
last year to begin an investigation of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. With particular reference to his employment in the-
Federal Government?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. And his involvement with alleged Soviet espionage
activities ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you now detail to the committee the results of
your investigation as you obtained them from the Government files
and upon the investigations of investigators who worked under you in
tliis particular case.
Mr. Russell. I will, omitting certain phases of the investigation,
Mr. Stripling. That is agreeable.
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
Mr, Stripling. AYe don't want to go into certain phases of this re-
port at this time, and if it is agreeable with the Chair, he will skip
over that part.
Mr. Mundt. Very well.
Mr. Russell. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster was born in Russia in
1808. He entered the United States from China where he had attended
school.
Silvermaster became a naturalized citizen of the United States in
1927. He received an A. B. degree from the University of Wa^^hing-
ton, which is located in Seattle, Wash., in 1920. In 1932 he received a
Ph. D. degree from the University of California.
Silvermaster was employed as a professor bv St. Marv's College at
Oakland, Calif., from 1924 through 1931. From 193^ to August 1935
he was employed intermittently by the State of California. From
August 1935 until November 1938 he was employed by the Farm Se-
curity Administration of the United States Government. From No-
vember 1938 to July 19-10 he was employed by the Maritime Lab )r
J3oard in Washington, D. C. From July 1940 until December 28. 194 k
lie was employed by the Department of Agriculture. From December
29, 1944, to April 30, 1945, Silvermaster was employed by the Treasury
Department of the United States Government as an economist. On
February 1, 1945, Silvermaster was ])romoted to a position i)aying
$8,000 per annum with the Procurement Division of the Ti'easuiy
Department. From Ma}' 1 to November 4, 1945, he was employed ])y
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 613
the Department of Commerce in the Surplus Property Office. From
November 5, 1945, to ]March 24, 1946, Silvermaster was employed by
the War Assets Administration.
While Avith the War Assets Administration, Silvermaster was em-
ployed at a salary of $10,000 per annum. Shortly before his resigna-
tion from the War Assets Administration in March 1946, Silvermaster
received a reduction in grade amounting to $2,000 per year. Because
of this reduction in salary, he resigned from his position with the War
Assets Administration and gave as the reason therefor the following
statement :
Having performed outstanding service in the field of surplus property disposal
since July 1944, I have refused to accept an arbitrary demotion in status from
that of Director of tlie Economic and Market Research Division, Office of Planning
and Policy, to that of Deputy Director, Planning and Researcli Division, Office of
Ileal Property Disposal.
On February 25, 1944, the Special Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities, popularly known as the Dies committee, subpenaed certain
records from the Civil Service Conmiission. Among the reports sub-
mitted to the Special Committee on Un-American Activities in com-
pliance with the subpena were reports dated from May 6 to December
^, 1942. These reports had been submitted to the Civil Service Com-
mission as a I'esult of an investigation which the Commission had con-
ducted at a time when Silvermaster was under consideration for trans-
fer to the position of head economic analyst, Board of Economic War-
fare, at a salary rating of $6,500 annually. Silvermaster, at the time
of this investigation, desired to transfer from the Department of Agri-
culture. Farm Security Administration, where lie was employed as
Director of the Labor Division.
The following is based upon reports contained in the Civil Service
Commission file which was subpenaed February 25, 1944, by the
Special Connnittee on Un-American Activities, popularly known as
the Dies committee.
Contained in one of the reports subpenaed from the Civil Service
■Commission in 1944 are the following statements:
There is considerable testimony in the tile indicating that about 1^20. the
applicant was an midtrsrnund agent for the Ccnununist I'arty. From that time
he has bt'en, according to the testimony of numerous witnesses, everything from
a fellow traveler to an agent for the OGPU (Russian Secret Police). He has
been known and listed in tlie files of the Seattle Police Department, the Thirteenth
Naval District, the San Francisco Police Department, the subversive unit of the
American Legion at San Francisco, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, an
a member and leader of the Communist Party.
Several score of witnesses were interviewed at the various points of investiga-
tion and the testimony was overwhelmingly to the effect that from the time
that the applicant entered this country t<i the present date, he has chosen as his
clo.se fi-iends and associates, men and women who were either members of the
Communist Party, or who by their membership and affiliations in subversive and
front organizations, indicated their sympathy for the aims and polices of the
Communist Party. Those facts were confirmed in part by the applicant at the
time of .special hearings. He admitted his close association with the persons
referred to in the testimony of various witnesses, among whom are well-knowa
Communists. He admitted that he is aware of the fact that Richard Bransten,
alias Richard Brandstein, alias Bruce Minton, is a member of the Conununist
Party and is at present an editor of New Masses. He stated that Bransten is
one of his close.st social fri.Mids at this time and that he and his wife wer' ?;u"sta
in the Bransten home along with Paul Robeson and Lee Pressman, 2 weeks befor<»
the hearing.
014 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The appliotint stated that his only conta.t with Earl Browder was when they
met at a huiclKM)n of the Commonwealth Club at San Francisco in the summer
of 11)37. He stated that he was a regular attendant at the meetings and par-
ticipated in the projiram of this club.
It should be noted that numerous witnesses and the tiles of various subversive
units allege that the applicant was a member of the Fillmore section of the Com-
munist Party at San Francisco.
Various witnesses and the files of various subversive units allege that the
applicant was clo.sely associated with Sam Darcy and Harry Bridges, and
alternated with Bridges in talking to the waterfront strikers in San Francisco.
Mr. Stripling. You referred to various subversive units. Would
you amplify the statement? Were you referring to files of various
agencies ?
Mr. KussELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Yen are referring to Government agencies?
Mr. KussELL. That is right.
The applicant at tlie si)ecial hearing denied talking to the strikers during the
water-front strike and explained that his association with Darcy and Bridges
became necessary because of the position he held with the Maritime Labor Board.
There is considerable testimony, however, that he was in close contact with
them before he was appointed to tlie Maritime Board and the applicant admitted
that he had been a guest at a party given by Sam Kagel at which Bridges was also
present and that Harry Bridges and Sam Kagel were guests of his home within
the last few months.
I might say that in view of the fact that there are so many persons
identified in here no further identifying data other than that given in
the Civil Service Commission reports have been included at this time.
Mr. Stripling. Have you stated, Mr. Russell, that this civil-service
file — that file, Mr. Chairman, was subpenaed in 1944 by the Special
Committee on Un-American Activities. It is not a complete file. The
Civil Service Ccmimission refused at the time to honor the subpena by
furnishing the entire file, u])on the direction of the President of the
United States, because he said it would not be in the public interest
to do so. We did receive that nuich of it, however, and a number of
these quotations, which Mr. Russell is giving, are from that file based
upon their investigations and information they received from other
Govermnent agencies.
Mr. Russell. This is also from the Civil Service Commission repoi't :
The title of the applicant's thesis when he received his Ph. D. at the University
of California in l'Xi'2 was Lenin's Contribution to Economic Thouglit I'rior to
the Bolshevik Revolution. This, in itself, would not necessarily be signiticant
of his political philosophy but when considered witli the testimony of the witnesses
relating to his C< mmunist activities, it appears to be liiglily signiticant.
Tlie applicant denied that he was an agent of the OGPU or a member of the
Comnumist Party. Former members of tlie Communist I'arty state that when
a Communist is asked as to his membership in the party, he at that moment ceases
to be a member until he answers in the negative. After he makes answer }iis
niemliership is reinstated according to Connnuiiist doctrines.
It is possible that some of tl^e testimony in this case is unreliable but granting
such, the overwhelming amount of testimony from the many and varied witnesses
and sources, indicates beyond reasonable doubt that Nathan (Jregory Silvermaster
is now. and has for years, been a member and a leader of tiie Ctmimunist X'arty,
and very probably a secret agent of tlie OGPU.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, you are quoting from the Civil S?rvice
i'e]:)ort ?
INIr. Rt^ssELL. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that last statement you made from tlie Civil Service
leport ?
\
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 615
Mr. llussELL. That is in the Civil' Service Commission report.
Mr. MuNDT. Tlie Civil Service Commission says he probably is a
member of the OGPU. which is the state secret police agency of the
Communist Party of Russia?
Mr. KussELL. That is right ; better known as the XKYD, and since
then as the MVD. but it is the same thing.
Mr, SxRirLixG. Would j^ou identif}- the person who prepared that
memorandum i
Mr, Russell. There were so many it will be difficult to locate them,
but I can find it.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman. I will be glad to show this to the
connnittee. However, since this man is still an agent of the investi-
gatoi-y body of the Federal Government, I don't think it would be
wise to make his name public. I will submit it to you.
Mr. MuNDT. Show us his name later.
]\Ir. Russell. Based upon a statement which I read as contained in
the Civil Service Commission files, the following recommendation was
made by the investigator :
It is hereby recommended that the applicant be declared ineligible for the
jjosition of head economist. Board of Economic Warfare. It is further j-ecom-
mended that all of his eligibilities be canceled and that he be debarred for 3-
years or for the duration of the emergency. whiehe\er be the longer. It is
further recommended that the Secretary of Agriculture be advised as to the
derogatory information received concei'ning the applicant in the course of this
investigation.
. As a result of the statements mentioned above, Mr. R. E, Green-
field, a rating and reviewing analyst for the Civil Service Commission^
made the following recommendation on July 16, 1942 :
Ineligible, cancel Mr. Silvermaster's eligibilities on the senior social .-science
analyst register, cancel any and all other pending applications or eligibilities
he may haA'e, and bar him for the duration of the national emergency.
Another section of the Civil Service Commission reports, as set
forth under a heading "Evidence of Disloyalty,'' contains the follow-
ing statement :
Tliere is considerable testimony in the file indicating that about in 1920
Mr. Silvermaster was an underground agent of the Communist Party. From
that time until the present, according to the testimony of the witnesses, he has
been everything from a fellow traveler to an agent of the OGFU.
He is listed in the files of the Seattle police department as follows : "Gregory N.
Silvermaster, alias Gregory Masters, alias Nathan Masters, as a nation;il com-
mitteeman at large of the Communist Party, U. S. A. * * * Silvermaster
was former agitation propagandist of the Fillmore subsection in the San Fran-
cisco, Calif., Thirteenth District Communist Party."
Another section of the Civil Service Commission report states:
The Thirteenth Naval District files show "Original name, X. Zeilberneister,
member of Communist Party in Seattle, \Yash. (no date), completely under-
ground in 1920."
Another section of the Civil Service Commission reports, which, as
stated, were subpenaed in 1944. contains this statement :
A great many witnesses were interviewed during the investigation iu this
ease and the testimony is overwhelmingly to the effect that from the time Mr.
Silvermaster entered this country to the present time, he has chosen as his
clo.«e friends and associates men and women who are either members of the
Communist I'arty or who by their membership and affiliation in subversive and
fi-ont organizations indicate their sympathy for the aims and policies of the
Communist Party. At the hearing Mr. Silvermaster admitted various associa-
616 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
tious with approximately 50 persons listed by the witnesses in the investigation,
among whom are well-known Comnnuiists. Harry Bridges, according to Mr.
Silvermaster, was in Washington "early this summer" (1942) and contacted
Mr. Silvermaster officially and also came to his home regarding certain opera-
tions of the waterfront on the Pacific coast. The list of persons i-eferred to
included the names of 32 jiersons listed as Communists or alleged Communists
by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Military Intelligence, or various police
departments. As an indication that Mr. Silvermaster has continued such asso-
■ciations up until the present time, he listed Mrs. Emily Blair, Mr. Harry Blair,
Mr. Harry D. White, Mr. Lee Pressman, and Mr. Richard Bransten, alias Bruce
Minton
Mr. STRiPLiNrx. Have all these people been previously identified in
connection with this particular hearing?
Mr. Russell. Mrs. Emily Blair was identified when the record of
Ullmann was read into the record this morning as having been tlie
employer of Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. Richard Bransten has been identified i^reviously?
Mr. Russell. Previously identified.
Mr. Stripling. And also in the Hollywood investigation.
Mr. Russell. Yes. His first wife, Louise Bransten, was also iden-
tified. Her name appears subsequently.
Mr. Stripling. Don't read any names which have not been brought
into this particular hearing.
Mr, Russell. All right.
"^te*
He admitted that he knows that Mr. Bransten is an avowed and open Com-
munist and the editor of New Masses.
Other comments contained in the Civil Service Commission file are
as follows :
It is considered that the developments in this case which include information
from many and varied witnesses and sources raise beyond any i-e.'isonable doubt
a question of Mr. Silvermaster's loyalty and as that doubt should be resolved
in favor of the Government, it is recommended that he be rated ineligible, that
his eligibilities on the senior social science analyst register as well as any and
all other pending applications or existing eligibilities he may have, be canceled
and that he be barreil for the duration of the national emergenc.v.
Mr. Mundt. What date was that statement written by the Civil
Service Commission?
Mr. Russell. There were a great number of investigative reports in
that file.
Mr. Mundt. I want to get the year.
Mr. Russell. 194^.
Mr. Mundt. 1942?
Mr. Russell. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. I want to get the chronology of this thing clear. As
I understand it — and it is almost beyond my comprehension — as I
understand it. that Civil Service report stating "on the basis of our
oflicial investigative bodies of the Government — FBI and Civil Service
and Intelligence offices — "that the Civil Service Commission felt
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster not only was a Communist of long-
standing but jn-obably a member of the NKVD or OGPU, the Russian
Secret Police Society" — find after that report was made available to
the emuloyment agencies, he continued in Government employment,
Mv. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Mundt. For how long after?
Mr. Ri'SSELL. E.xcuse me for a moment. It was until 1946. Toward
the conclusion of this report there is a statement covering that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 617
Ml'. MuxDT. To a country boy from South Dakota where we don't
do things like that, that is ahnost beyond comprehension, but as long
as you have the files of the Civil Service Connnission there and are
reading from them, and we have the testimony of Silvermaster him-
self, plus the (xovernment record that he was employed until 1946^
we must accept it for fact.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think it wouhl be helpful if the^
agencies by whom Silvermaster was employed after the date of this
report could appear in the record at this point so that the people, in
other woj-ds, who emploj^ed this man with knowledge of this particular
report — that certainly should be focused at this point in the record if
it is not done so later on.
Mr. JNIuxnT. Without objection, the staff will place that record in at
this point.
We have the record of the Silvermaster employment many different
times, but you can break it down chronologically to show with whicli
(jovernment agency he w^as employed subsequent to the time the Civil
Service Commission indicated him as a member of the Russian secret
police.
(The data referred to is in the files of the committee.)
Mr. Hebert. I think it significant to show that this committee did
not come into cognizance of Silvermaster until after these reports were
made by other Government agencies. Is that corre(5t?
Mr. ]\IuxDT. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. The Committee on Un-American Activities.
Ml'. Hebert. I am talking about the Committee on Un-American
Activities, the old Dies committee. How long was the Dies committee
investigating ?
Mr. Stripling. They started in 1938.
Mr. Hebert. That was prior to the time he came under the sur-
A'eillance of the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Dies tried to get him fired.
i\Ir. Hebert. He was already in government?
]Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Prior to the time that former Congressman Dies tried
to get him fired for his communistic activities, was the Govern.ment
cognizant of the fact that he had these associations?
Mr. Stripling. Here is the record, ]\lr. Hebert. They were ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. I am tr^nng to establish this : Silvermaster indicated
that this is just another link in a smear campaign by this conunittee
against him.
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. I want the record to show that the Government agency-
was actually cognizant prior to the activities of this committee of
Silvermaster's communistic attachmeaits and affiliations.
Mr. Stripling. According to the record, the reason he wasn't re-
moved was because he went to the White House and got Mr. Currie to
go to Mr. Patterson in his behalf.
Mr. Hebert. I want to establish the fact that the cogniz mt (jovern-
ment agency had known of his communistic attachments and aflilia-
tions prior to the investigation instituted bv the old Dies committee.
Mr. Stripling. I will have to check into it to see if it was prior to
1938.
'618 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuxHT. For the purpose of correctino- the record, Mr. Hebert,
when the Chair asked Mr. Silverniaster whether he thought this con-
spiracy to smear him, of which he spoke, was initiated by and con-
ducted by this committee, he said "No." I then asked him whether
it was the FBI, and he gave a rather vague and indefinite reply to
that question but did not say this committee was endeavoring to smear
him,
Mr. Russell. This statement is a quotation from the Civil Service
Commission report :
Silvermaster, of course, denied any implications tliat he is a Communist.
In my opinion, sucli denials sound indeed empty in the face of the cumulative
evidence that he is a Communist of great importance.
The opinion expressed is by the Civil Service Commission, not
mine.
It will be noted that the testimony linking Silvermaster with communism
and with the OGPU (tlie Russian secret police) comes not only from persons
without any ax to grind who have made a study of Communist activities and
personalities, but from persons who are themselves in the Connnunist movement
or members of the Communist Party and in the best position to furnish informa-
tion concerning Silvermaster.
As in all such cases, the evidence is circumstantial. It is so strong, however,
that I am convinced, after reading the file, that Silvermaster is in fact a Com-
munist and a worker for the Communist cause.
This [the following] is not a quotation. This is an investigative
report of the committee:
With reference to the proposed transfer of Nathan Gregory Silver-
master to the Board of Economic Warfare from the Farm Security
Administration, which was the basis for the Civil Service Commis-
sion's investigation, it should be noted that the Civil Service Com-
mission received a communication from the Board of Economic
Warfare which stated, in part:
* * * action looking to Mr. Silvermaster's employment in such a position
has been discontinued, and any investigations which might now be in progress
can be canceled.
A memorandum in the Civil Service Commission file regarding
the request for termination of the Silvermaster investigation by the
Board of Economic Warfare contains this statement :
This, of course, ends the matter insofar as the Board of Economic Warfare
is concerned. As the Commission may recall, we have made an exceedingy
comprehensive investigation of Mr. Silverniiister at aljout half a dozen localities
in this country. The case was regarded as a very close and important one.
The last di^tei-mi nation was that it would probably be necessary to make even
furtlier investigation.
It is doubtful if in view of the turn the case has taken we have a good basis
lor proceeding with the investigation. It is believed, however, tliat we should
invite an inspection of the tile by officials of th> Department of Agriculture,
Mr. Silvermaster apparently still being in tbe Faim S-^curity Administratidn.
In tliis connection it might be pointed out that much of the evidence in tlie
case points to the fact tliat ?.Ir. Silvermaster is one of the really imijortant
operatives of the undercover Communist Party in the I'nited States. II? has
been employed by tbe Farm Security Administration for a niunb n- oi years,
i-pecilically from IDS") to 193S, and iSI-io to date.
Mr. Hkber^'. May I interrupt^ I want to get this straight in my
own mind. What you are reading is quotes from the Civil Service file
repoits, and is not an expression of your opinion or the o]")inioii of
anv member of the committee'^
]\[r. Russ?:ll. That is right.
\
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 619
Mv. Stripling. This is tlie Civil Service.
Mv. Ri'ssELL. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. The letter you read in connection with tlie barring
of Silvermaster from eniph)vment by the Government, was that an
official act of the Civil Service Commission ?
Mr. Russell. That was.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, the Civil Service Connnission — and
T am speaking- of the Civil Service Commission and talkhig of tlie
Commission itself, the top three — under their authority wrote an order
telling the Government not to employ Silvermaster because of the
confirmation in their minds of these conclusions which you are reading
from their report, in addition also to the report from Naval Intelli-
gence.
Mr. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling, That is correct?
Mr. Ri'ssELL. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Then after the Civil Service Commission formally
and officially instructed the governmental agencies not to employ
Silvermaster, he then went to Lauchlin Currie. who in turn w^ent to
Secretary Patterson, who in turn wrote the letter which has been
introduced in evidence removing the bar of the Civil Service Com-
mission and allowing him to be employed bv the Government ; is that
right?
Mr. Rltssell. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. That is it ?
INIr. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. There was an official action by the Civil Service
Coitimission overridden. by the then Secretary of War through the
intercession of an administrative assistant from the White House.
Mv. Russell. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. I think the record should show that administrative as-
sistant w^as Lauchlin Currie, because there were several administrative
assistants.
Mr. Stripling. In that connection does the file show, Mr. Russell,
that Nathan Gregory Silvermaster gave Lauchlin Currie as a ref-
erence?
Mr. Russell. In the interview which the Civil Service Commission
conducted with Mr. Silvermaster there is a statemet to the effect that
he is a friend of Lauchlin Currie.
INIr. Stripling. Who else did he list as a reference or friend?
Mr. Ri'ssELL. He listed Harry D. White as a social acquaintance as
well as Mr. White's wife. He also listed Nathan Witt, and there are
numerous individuals whom he identified during the course of his
interrogation by the Civil Service Commission whom he would not
identify when he appeared before this committee.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Investigator William Wheeler of the
committee staff is prepared to testify that the Civil Service in making-
its investigation connnunicated with Lauchlin Currie as to the fitness
and loyalty of Mr. Silvermaster. Mr. Currie recommended Mr. Sil-
vermaster.
Now, I don't want to exi)ose the investigator or the people who
handled that for the Government agency, but Mr. Wheeler has a
direct statement to that effect and will so testify, if necessary.
620 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuxDT. We have the name of tlie CIahI Service investigator
who made that statement ?
Ml'. Stripling. We do.
Mr. MuNDT. So if necessary, if Mr. Currie comes in nnder oath and
denies that, we can snbpena him.
Mr. S'J'RiPLiNO. He is ah-eady nnder subpena.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wonld like to annonnce while counsel is
conferring that J. Peters, alias Alexander Stevens, alias Isidore
Boorstein, who has been bronglit into this liearing as one of the key
lignres and one of the master minds of the whole cc^ispiracy and
whom we have been trying to locate for a long time so we conld serve
a subpena on him, we have just received word from Mr. Watson B.
Miller, Commissioner of Immigration, that they will locate this man
for us now so we can serve a subpena upon him and we shall serve it
forthwith.
Is that all, Mr. Stripling, for this morning?
Mr. Stripling. We would like permission to include the entire
memorandum, an analysis of the Civil Service file, as well as our own
investigation, into the record nnless the committee wants to hear
all of it.
Mr. MuNDT. I think the committee has heard enough and you can
put the whole statement into the record so that we will have the whole
thing entirely in context.
(The information referred to is as follows:)
Record of J. Peters, Aiso Known as J. Peter, J. V. Peters, Ai^xandek ( Jold-
BERGER, Roberts, Steve Lapin, Pete Stevens, Steve Mtt.ler. Isador Boorstein.
Steven Lapur, Alexander Stevens
*
J. PETERS
J. Peters is the author of a pamiihlet entitled "'The (\iiiiiiiuiiist Party — A
Manual on Orjianization" published hy the Workers Library Publishers in .July
1932 and described his experiences in his I)ook, I Was a Soviet Worker (Dutton).
The I'arty Or.iianizer was for a time an internal oi-gan of the ronnnunist Party.
USA, devoted to matters of oi-gaiiizatiou. It was circiilated only within party
ranks and its contributors were restricted to members of the party. .T. Peters
contributed articles to this magazine in its issues of .Tune 1931, page 1 ; July 1934,
page 26 ; February 1987, page 7 ; September 1933.
The Communist was for a number of years the official, theoretical, monthly
organ of the Communist Party, USA. Its contributors were resti-icted to mem-
bers of the party. Articles by .1. Peters are to be found in the Communist for
September 1933, page 948, and October 1935, page lODfi.
Andrew Smith was an American Comnuniist who visited the Soviet Union in
1932 and descri))ed his experiences in his book I Was a Soviet Worker (Dutton).
In the appendix of this I)ook are facsimiles of two documents, one certifying to
the relial)ility of Andrew Smith as a Communist and also anncuncing his trans-
fer to the Soviet Union. The first is dated March 7, 1932 and the second is dated
March 17, 1932. Both are signed by .T. Peters as the "Acting Representative, CP
USA, E. C. C. I." (the abbreviations stand for Communist Pai-ty, USA, Execu-
tive Committee of the Comnuniist IntinTiati<'nal ).
The Krumliein Training Scliool was organized in 193<I for the purpose of train-
ing Conununist leaders. It was named in honor of Ciiarles Krumbein. a Com-
munist leader now deceased. The I)aily Worker of .lune S, 193(5, page 5, shows
that J. Peters was an instructor at the Ki-umbein Training School.
On October .30, 1947, Louis .1. Russell, investigator for the Ccnunittee on Un-
American Activities, subujitted the following testimony regarding the act vi ties
of .1. Peters :
''On May 3, 1942, Alexander Stevens, also known as .1. Petei'S, and whose real
name is Goldberger, visited Los Angeles, Calif. When he arrived in Los Angeles
he was met ))y Herbert Riberman at the Union Station. During that day a
meeting was held bv Alexander Stevens, Waldo Salt, and H Mbert Bib^rman.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 621
* * * Also on that same date a third meeting was held hy Alexander Stevens,
J. I'eters, R. Goldherser. as he is known, Morton Grant, John Howard Lawson,
and Vera Harris, the wife of Lou Harris, a screen writer.
"During the evening of May 3, 1VA2, another meeting was held in Herhert
Bib.ernian's home between Stevens or I'eters. John Howard Lawson, Lester Cole,
^Madeline Ruthven, and Herta I'erkvitz. Lester Cole is a screen writer while
Ruthveu I'erkvitz are Connnuiiist Party functionaries in Los Angeles, Calif.
Ruthven, Lawson. Stevens, and Salt also held a meeting on the same date, late
at night, in the home of Waldo Salt. During this visit, among other things,
Stevens was working on the Communist-inspired movement to secure the release
of Earl Browder. Communist Party president at that time, from a Federal
penitentiary, whei'e he had been incarcerated on a charge of using a false pass-
port to travel to the Soviet Union. ~
"Stevens also had a very succes.sful tinancial trip since he collected $1,500, or
furnished this sum to Communist Party functionaries in California, which he
had re<-eived from Louise Brausten. He also received the sum of !j<2,200 from a
Ruth Wilson, whom 1 can identify in executive session, * * *
"Mr. Stripi.ixg. Mr. Chairman, with reference to J. Peters, or Stevens, I should
like to state that the committee issued a subiiena calling for his appearance
before the conunittee yesterday. However, we have b^-en unable to serve the
subpena. It was issued several months ago. He was arrested by the inuiiigra-
tion authorities about 3 weeks ago in Poughkeepsie. N. Y.
"The conunittee has evidence to show that J. Peters, or Alexander Stevens, or
Isadore Boorstein, as he is also known, has for years been the leader of the under-
ground section of the Communist Party in the United S'tates.
"The committee has the passport, a fraudulent passport, by the way, on which
he traveled to the Soviet Union on October 7, 1931, under the name of Isadore
Boorstein. When and if we can obtain Mr. Peters and have him before the
conunittee we will go into great detail concerning his activities. * * *
"Mr. Stkipi.ixg. Can yoti tell the committee- whether your investigation dis-
closed whether or not Peters was, or Alexander Stevens was. very successful in
raising funds among various peop'e in the motion-picture industry when he was
out there in behalf of Earl Browder?
"Mr. Russell. Yv'ell, the donations that I know about are those received from
Louise Bransten and Ruth Wilson. However, it is known that Bransten — or, that
Stevens, or Peters, as he is known, visited a bank with Herbert Biberman and that
Biberman entered a safety deposit box in the bank. However, I can't state
whether or not he got money from the bf)X.
"Mr. Stripling. He did enter the bank with Peters?
"Mr. Russell. That is right" ( pp. r)17-510. Hearings Before the Committee on
Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Regarding the Communist
Infiltration of the Motion-Picture Industry).
On February 6, 1947, Mr. Louis F. Budenz submitted the following testimony
before the Conunittee on Un-American Activities:
"You can understand then that Mr. Berger-P^isler's power, in part, is the fact
that he is the receptacle of the line and of the orders as they come from Moscow.
"But there are others. J. V. Peters. I would like to mention that gentleman
because he will undoubtedly appear again. J. V. Peters, known as Roberts, known
as Steve; in fact, having so many different names that, as I say. he made me
dizzy trying to keep track of them, he also was part of this apparatus" (p. 46,
Hearings Before the Committee on Un-American Activities on Gerhart Eisler,
Investigation of Un-American Propaganda Activities in the United States).
On November 22. 1946, ^Ir. Louis F. Budenz testified before the Committee on
Un-American Activities, in part : "there was a Peters — the last man changed his
name so much tliat it kept me busy trying to remember what the name was.
"I was frequently embairassed as to what I was to call him — J. V. Peters,
Ja -k Roberts, or whatever the new name might be. * * *
"Now, as a matter of fact, the Peters mentioned had written a pamphlet for
the Communist Party long ago under the name of J. V. Peters, and that places
him. As a matter of fact, it was Peters who introduced me to the idea of the
conspiratorial apparatus of the Communist Party. He is a plea.sant man, too,
so far as that goes. He told me that the Communist Party is like a submerged
submarine ; the part that you see above water is the periscope, but the part
underneath is the real Communist organization ; that is the conspiratorial ap-
paratus" (pp. 13, 14, RevLsed Hearings Before the Committee on Un-American
Activities, Investigation of Un-American Propaganda Activities in the United
States).
622 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Daily Worker of ^lay 27, 1929, pages 1 and 5, refers to J. Peter as follows :
"Unreserved acceptance of the decisions contained in the Comintern, letter
is pledged in the resolutions adopted by the Hungarian Bureau of the Commu-
nist I'arty at its meeting. Thursday, May 23, and sent to the Central Committee
of tlie party through J. Peter, secretary."
The Daily Worker of May 24, 1929, page 1, carried the following statement
of J. Peter :
"From Hungarian Bureau Secretary.
"I fully and unreservedly endorse and accept the Comintern letter and the
Polcom's unanimous decisions. I pledge my full supiwrt to the Central Commit-
tee tightiug against all factionalism, for building the mass Communist Party
in the United States. I will do all in my power to mobilize members to sup-
poi-t the Comintern letter and the unanimous decisions of the Central Committee."
"J. Peter,
"Hungarian Bureau, Communist Party."
J. I'eter contributed articles to the Daily Worker on October 10, 193.'>, and
October 11, 1933.
J. I'eters contributed articles to the Daily Worker on May 30 and 31, 1933.
STEVE MILLER
Steve INIiller is mentioned as a speaker at special meetings held during the
week of April 9, 1940, on The Struggle for Peace and Building the Communist
Party. According to the Daily Worker of April 9, 1946, these meetings were
arranged by the New York County of the Conmiunist Party.
According to a confidential report in our files. Steve INIiller was a delegate to
the New York State .special convention of the Communist Political Association
held on August 10. 11, and 12, 1945.
Ml". MuNDT. The hearing will stand in recess until tomorrow morn-
ing at 10 : 30, at which time we will hear Alger Hiss.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the committee recessed until 10 : 30
a. m., Thursday, August 5, 1948.)
i
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IK
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT •
I
THURSDAY, AUGUST 5, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met. pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus-
room, Old House Office Buildinti:, Hon. Karl E. Mundt presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. JNIundt, John
]\IcDoAvell, Richard M. Nixon, John E. Rankin, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator ;^
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, and Robert B. Gaston, investi-
gators, and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, before starting, I have a request 1
want to make. It has been testified that a large number of these indi-
viduals who are charged with being Communist spies were working
in the Department of Commerce during the time that Henry A.
Wallace was Secretary of that Department.
Since these individuals were evidently appointed by him, I suggest
that Henry A. Wallace be subpenaed to come before the committee
and tell us why these Communists who were plotting the overthrow of
the Government were placed in key positions in his Department at
a time when our j^oung men were fighting and dying on every battle
front in the world for the protection of this country.
Mr. jNIundt. The Chair will say the conmiittee is going to have an
(xecutive session this afternoon and that request will be considered at
that time.
Mr. McDowell has a statement to make.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Rankin. I would like to submit this for the record.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman, I received this morning a telephone
call from a conscience-stricken employee of the Government, discuss-
ing in some detail the transfer of American currency plates to the
Soviet Government. It is well known to many that that cost, in the
occupation zones over there, the United States Government many
millions of dollars.
Since I received the call I have been thinking over a number of
things, and I think I should state this at this time publicly — that I
have been a member of a special subcommittee that was appointed
sometime ago by the chairman of the full Connnittee on Un-American
Activities. This committee has been sitting in executive session for
Fome time.
623
624 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The committee, I feel, was appointed without even tlie knowledge
of some of the members of the C'onnnittee on Un-American Activities.
We have been taking testimony on many things leading up to the
j>resent hearings today.
As the widespread ramifications of this intense espionage ring-
begin to unfold here, 1 feel that .the American people should know
what is coming to be well known to all who observe the situation^ —
that we most certainly won the war and are most rapidly losing
the ])eace.
I have left my home in Pittsburgh a number of times to rush down
here and take testimony. Among other things that I will reveal
now is that at the very height of atomic research in 194:3, at the most
desperate part of the American war effort, there were two shi})ments
of uranium compound, the most substantial element of atomic energ-y,
made to Russia after tremendous pressure on all j^hases of the Ameri-
can Government on the part of Russian agents, some of them known
and acknowledged as Russian agents and others who had established
themselves by surreptitious methods in the American Government.
These shipments were made from a small, obscure airfield in the
United States, the. first one of o()() ]:)ounds and the second of 1,000
pounds.
We have established almost beyond question that a shipment of
heavy water was sent to Russia, under ]:)ressure ]:)artly from legitimate
and legal sources and partly from the pressure exerted by members
of this ring, whether they were known or unknown members of the
ring. We know that a factory was flown entirely to Russia.
Mr. Rankin. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. The gentleman says these plates for the printing of
American money were sent to Russia. Were those Federal Reserve
plates? And what was being printed — was it Federal Reserve notes
being printed over there?
Mr. McDowell. I am unable to answer the gentleman's question
other than they were currency plates from the United States Depart-
ment of the Treasury.
Mr. Rankin. We have that bill before the House today, to amend
the Federal Reserve Act. It seems to me that this is a very vital
question. If they have been printing Federal Reserve money and
making it legal tender at the expense of the United States, I think it
ouffht to be brought out on the floor.
Mr. McDowell. The gentleman from Mississi])pi has noted this
morning that the Commerce Department was heavily infiltrated by
these people — the story is beginning to be unfolded here — and this is
only the beginning of the story. It might be well to point out to the
gentleman from Mississippi and all the rest of the members of this
committee that we have discovered that the infiltration is also deep in
the State Department, deep in the Department of the Treasury, deep
in the War Production Board, deep even in the OSS of the United
States Army during the hostilities.
Mr. Rankin. How about the last two political conventions?
Mr. McDowell. I W'ould like to say that in the testimony that has
been taken in executive session, some of the highest and most beloved
and most honored citizens of the United States have appeared and
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 625
gladly testified to the activities that they knew about and were willing
to give their Government at this period.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling, who is your first witness ?
Mr. Stripling. I would like to call Congressman Busbey, of Illinois,
for the purpose of putting into the record a letter which he received
from the Commissioner of Civil Service, Mr. Flemming. It relates
directly to the Silvermuster matter, and I think it is pertinent to be in
the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Congressman Busbey in the room ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Eankin. I would like the record to show that Representative
Busbey was an honored and very effective and very valuable member
of the Committee on Un-American Activities when Mr. Dies, of Texas,
was chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Busbey?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Busbey. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF HON. FRED E. BUSBEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Busbey, will you give your full name, please.
Mr. Busbey. Fred E. Busbey.
Mr. Stripling. You are a Representative in Congi-ess from the State
of Illinois?
Mr. Busbey. Representing the Third District in the Eightieth Con-
gress.
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir. Busbey, in connection with your official duties
as a Member of the House, did you investigate, last year, the activities
of Nathan Gregory Silvei master while he was employed in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Busbey. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee any information at
this time which would be jjertinent to the inquiry uncler consideration.
Mr. Busbey. I think, Mr. Stripling, I should state at the beginning
that I have been interested in running down subversive activities in
the United States ever since 1921.
I was a member of the Seventy-eighth Congress ; I was not reelected
for the Seventy-ninth Congress, and I was elected for the Eightieth
Congress.
One of the first things I did, upon being sworn in as a ^Member of
the Eightieth Congress was to write Mr. Arthur Flemming, one of
the Commissioners of the United States Civil Service Commission, a
letter regarding Carl A. Marzani and Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
If the committee will permit, I have dictated a memorandum lead-
ing up to these letters that I would like to read as I go along and
then put the letters into the record.
INIr. Stripling. Is that agreeable to the chairman?
Mr. MuNDT. That is perfectly all right.
80408—48 9
626 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States are
wondering- just how far the Communists have infiltrated into highly
confidential Government positions. For the past several days we have
listened to and read with amazement the stories related by former
Communist functionaries. One in particular spent the war years in
getting secret information to be sent to a foreign government. While
we are at a loss to understand why an American would furnish military
or otherwise confidential information to the agent of a foreign gov-
ernment, we should be more concerned as t o how persons of such weak
character were placed in Government positions.
I have given considerable thought and study to this question, and
the only conclusion I have been able to reach is that the fault lies
squarely on the shoulders of the Civil Service Commission. What
caused me to reach such a conclusion ?
To begin with, the Civil Service Commission is the employing agency
for the Federal Government. One of its duties is to determine the
fitness and suitaliility of those persons seeking Government employ-
ment. Loyalty to our form of government was generally presumed,
but in the early day of the preparedness program the Civil Service
Commission no longer presumed applicants for Government posi-
tions to be loyal. On May 29, lOlO, the Commission issued the follow-
ing press release :
The United States Civil Service Commission has decided officially that as a
matter of policy it will not certify to any department or agency the name of any
person Avhen it has heen established that he is a member of the Communist Party,
German Bund, or any other Communist or Nazi organization.
A restatement of this policy was made by Arthur Flemming, a
member of the Civil Service Commission, on December 12, 1940, when
he testified before a subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
House of Representatives, Seventy-seventh Congress. 5lr. Flemming
said:
In connection with all our investigations, we are keeping this policy in mind :
If we find anybody has had any associations with the Communists or the German
Bund, or any other foreign organization of that kind, that person is disqualified
immediately. All doubts are being resolved in favor of the Government.
Now, gentlemen, let me impress that one sentence on you. That
is a statemeiit by Mr. Flemming of the Civil Service Commission on
December 12 before the Appropriations Committee :
All doubts are being resolved in favor of the Government.
On September 7, 1941, Hon. Martin Dies, chairman of the Committee
on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, charged that
Leon Henderson, Price Administrator, had employed at least 50 per-
sons with records of affiliations with Communist front organizations.
Specificall3% Mr. Dies named — I am not going to read this portion
to the committee, but ask permission that it be incorporated at this
point in the record. It has to do with one individual particularh-,
a Tom Tippett, and showed how the committee did not resolve these
things in favor of the Government.
(The material referred to above is as follows :)
Tom Tippett, Assistant Chief, Rent Section, $o,(iOO per annum.
E. J. Lever, principal field representative, $5,(t00 per annum.
Mildred Brady, principal specialist, $r).(300 per annum.
Robert A. Brady, head consultant, $7,500 .per annum.
Dewey H. Palmer, consultant, $20 per day.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 627
I do not intend to enter into a discussion of the Communist front
affiliations of these five persons, but I do Avant to mention something
about Mr. Tippett. The record shows Mr. Tippett was a member
of the National Executive Committee of the Conference for Pro-
gressive Labor Action. The letterhead of this organization carries
the following statement of purpose :
It aims to inspire the workers to take control of government and industry,
to abolish capitalism, and to build a workers' republic.
In addition, Mr. Tippett was among the sponsors of a banquet
given Ella Reeve Bloor, affectionately referred to by Connnunists
as ''Mother Bloor." He was a member of the American Committee
for the Defense of Leon Trotsky. He was a staff writer for the
Comnumist Daily Worker. Together with Earl Browder and Wil-
liam Z. Foster, he w^as a speaker at a meeting of the Workers Party
in Chicago in 1923. He was a speaker at a meeting of the Com-
munist Trade Union Educational League wdiere he was introduced
by Foster. If not an actual Communist, Mr. Tippett certainly could
be classified as having had association with Connnunists, who, accord-
ing to Commissioner Flemming, were disqualified immediately. Mr.
Tippett was disqualified by the Commission. But Mr. Leon Hender-
son interceded on behalf of Mr. Tippett and the Civil Service Com-
mission, utterly disregarding their statement of policy to Congress,
rated Mr. Tippett eligible. The Commission said that Mr. Tippett
had been indiscreet and sometimes unwise in his associations and
utterances.
From there on the record of similar actions by the Civil Service
Commission in permitting Communists and their fellow travelers to
obtain important Government positions is almost endless and con-
tinues to the present day.
I want to submit proof of how the Communists and Communist
sympathizers obtain important and confidential positions. On Jan-
uary 6, 1947, I wrote Mr. Arthur S. Flemming of the Civil Service
Commission asking for information on two persons then employed
in the Government service. They were Carl Aldo Marzani and
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. On January 8, 1947, I received the
following reply :
United States Civil Service Commission,
Washington 25, D. C, January 8, 1947.
lion. Fred E. Busbey,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Congressman Busbey : Reference is made to your letter of January 6,
1947, regarding the recommendations and final action taken by the Commission
in the cases of Carl A. Marzani and Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
In the case of Carl A. Marzani, ineligibility was recommended by the rating
examiner of the Investigations Division, which recommendation was concurred
in by the reviewer and the chief of the Investigations Division. His case was
reviewed by two staff members and the Executive Director and Chief Examiner,
all of whom recommended ineligibility. The Commission rated Mr. Marzani in-
eligible, and from this rating, Mr. Marzani appealed and was given a hearing
before the Board of Appeals and Keview, at which time Messrs. H. C. Barton,
chief of the Presentation Division. Emil Despres of the Board of Analysis, Pi*of.
Edward S. Mason of the Board of Analysis, and Maj. D. Thompson of the Army
Service Forces, all of whom were fellow employees, with the exception of Mr.
H. C. Barton, who was the supervisor under whom Mr. Marzani was employed,
and all of whom were with the Office of Strategic Services, testified emphatically
regarding Mr. Marzani's loyalty. Thereafter, the Board of Appeals and Review
recommended eligibilit.v, and the case was again reviewed by two staff members,
one of whom recommended ineligibility and the other eligibility, the eligible
62 S COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
rating being concurred in by the Executive Director and Cliief Examiner. Tlie
Commission tlien rated Mr. Marzani eligible.
Additional information regarding Mr. Marzani has recently come to light,
and the entire file regarding Mr. INIarzani was referred to the Department of
Justice for tlieir consideration. Subsequent to the receipt of your letter of
January 6, 1947, a conference was held with the Department of Justice regarding
Mr. Marzani's case, at which time the Department of Justice expressed the
desire that any information whatsoever regarding him be lield in strict confidence.
That concludes the part of the letter in reference to Carl A. Marzani.
I would like to say in that connection that ^Ir. Flemming delivered this
letter to me at my office in person and we had a discussion of this
Marzani case and the Silvermaster case for an hour and a half.
Mr. Eankin. What is the date of that letter?
Mr, BusBF.Y. January 8, 1947. Mr. Flemming pleaded with me not
to expose the information I had at that time on Mr. Marzani, and he
also stated that if I did not expose it, that he was almost certain they
could bring about an indictment of Mr. Marzani.
I served what was in effect an ultimatum on Mr. Flemming that I
would give them exactl}^ 14 days to indict Mr. Marzani. Twelve days
after this conference Mr. Marzani was indicted and, as you know,
was convicted. Unfortunately, he was only convicted for falsifying
his statements to the State Department and not convicted for his Com-
munist activities, because notwithstanding the fact this letter was
1947, the Civil Service Commission had a record of Mr. Marzani in
their files as far back as 1942 after his Communist affiliations were
known and under his Connnunist Party name of Tony Wales.
Reading further from the letter :
With regard to the case of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, this case first came to
the attention of the Commission when the Board of Economic Warfare requested
his transfer from the Department of Agriculture. While Mr. Silvermaster had
been in the Federal service since 1935, he held excepted positions and was not
under the Commission's jurisdiction. The rating examiner of the Investigations
Division recommended ineligibity, which recommendation was concurred in by
the reviewer and the Chief of the Investigations Division. Two staff members
reviewed the file and concurred in the recommendation of ineligibility. The
Executive Director and Chief Examiner likewise recommended ineligibility. At
this point, further investigation was decided iipon. Before this was completed,
the Board of Economic Warfare advised the Commission that they were no longer
interested in Mr. Silvermaster, and the investigation was discontinued because
we no longer had jurisdiction.
Mr. Silvermaster's case again came to the attention of the Commission when
the Procurement Division of the Treasury Department requested his transfer
I'rom the Department of Agriculture. The case was referred to the Loyalty
Rating Board for consideration. The Loyalty Rating Board requested further
investigation. Upon review of this case, the Loyalty Rating Board examiner
recommended ineligibility, and the Loyalty Ratina Board concurred in the
reconunendatiou of ineligibility.
The Commission, in reviewing this case, relied chiefly upon the testimony con-
tained in the files of the Military Intelligence Division, which revealed that the
then Under Secretary of Wai'. .Indue Robert P. Patterson, on July 3, 1942, wrote
to the Honorable Milo INn-kins, P>oard of Ectinomic Warfare, Washington, D. C,
to the effect that "I have personallv made an examination of the case and have
discussed it with Major Gen. G. V. Strong, G-2. I am fully satisfied that the
facts do not sliow anything derogatoi-y to Mr. Silvermaster's character or loyalty
to the United States, and that the charges in the report of June 3 are unfounded."
The Commission relied on the further fact that on July 1, 1944, the President's
Interdepartmental Connnittee advised the Department of Agriculture as follows:
"It is the opinion of the Committee that the record as submitted does not con-
tain sufficient infoi-niation to warrant charges pursuant to the statutes which
prohibit the retention in Government sei'vice of a person who is a member of an
organization which advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United
States by force or violence, or wlio personally so advocates."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 629
The Commission rated Mr. Silvermaster eligible for transfer to the Treasury
Department.
Prior to tlie date of your letter of January 6, 1947. the Commission authorized
the review of borderline cases in order that they may be i-eviewed in the light of
present-day standards. The Silvermaster ease was included among those to be
reviewed. Upon review, the Commission will inform you of any action it may
decide to take.
Very sincerely yours,
Arthur S. Flemming,
Commissioner.
Later I received a letter dated February 24, 1947, in which Mr.
Flemming stated, and I read his letter :
Dear Mr. Busbey : In a previous communication addressed to you I indicated
that the Commission was reviewing the case of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and
that I would provide you witli a report of the action taken as a result of this
review.
A majority of tlie Commission has decided tliat inasmuch as Mi\ Silvermaster
is no longer in the Government service, it is not now necessary for the Commis-
sion to reconsider its previous action, but that his name should be flagged so that
if he does come into the Government service again, the qiiestion of his suitability
can be given further consideration.
Tlie minutes of the Connnission will show that I dissent from this action on
the ground that he should in my judgment be barred at this time for an indefinite
period from Federal employment.
Very sincerely yours,
Arthtje S. Flemming,
Comrnissioner.
I want to call attention to one especially significant part of Mr.
Flemming's letter of January 8, 1947. He said that the examiner on the
Loyalty Rating Board and the Loyalty Rating Board itself recom-
mended ineligibility but that the Civil Service Commission in holding
that Silverma.ster was qualified for Government employment on the
question of loyalty relied chiefly on the recommendation of the Under
Secretary of War, Robert P. Patterson, and further relied on the
opinion of the Interdei^artmental Committee. Mr. Flemming did not
advise me that he knew the basis for Secretary Patterson's recom-
mendation or the opinion of the Interdepartmental Committee. There-
fore, I am bound to conclude that he did not know why such favorable
recommendations were made. This case is proof of the fact that the
Civil Service Commission ignored the recommendations of its quali-
fied personnel and succumbed to the whims and wishes of those of
higher authority.
Before I leave Mr. Flemming's letter of January 8, 1947, I want
to call attention to one thing that seems to me is the key to the question
as to how persons of questionable loyalty secured Government posi-
tions. Mr. Flemming says that the Commission authorized the review
of border-line cases in the light of present-day standards.
As I stated earlier, ]Mr. Flemming told Congress on December 12,
1940, that the policy of the Civil Service Commission was to resolve
all doubts in favor of the Government.
I will leave it to the committee after the testimony they have
already heard from witnesses as to whether that was a true statement
or not.
Several years later when questioned before the same subcommittee
as to this statement of policy, Mr. Flemming stated that it was still
in effect. If the rule in 1940^ and 1943 was to disqualify immediately
all persons who had any association with Communists or the German
630 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Bund, Mr. Flemming should be called upon to say when the rule was
changed and why.
Referring now to Mr. Flemming's letter of February 24, 1947. It is
most interesting. He says that inasmuch as Mv. Silvermaster is no
longer in the Government service it would not be necessary for the
Commission to reconsider its previous action but a majority of the
Commissioners agreed to flag Mr. Silvermaster — in the event he does
enter the Government service again his case will be given further
consideration.
Mr. Flemming called my attention to the fact that he dissented
with the majority as he thought Mr. Silvermaster should be barred
from further Government employment for an indefinite period.
What I would like to know is when Mr. Flemming changed his mind.
He should be called before this committee and asked to explain why
he agreed that Silvermaster was suitable for Government employment
one day and of the opinion he should be barred indefinitely another
day, all on the same record. Is not this ample evidence of the incon-
sistency of the actions of the Civil Service Commission and does it not
show tiiat the Civil Service Commission is not the proper Government
agency to administer a loyalty prosram?
If the records of the Civil Service Commission were made available
to a committee of Congress we would learn how the Tippetts, the
Thomas I. Emersons, the Nathan Gregory Silvermasters, the Jose-
jjhine Herbsts, the Donald Wheelers, the Carl Marzanis, the Michael
Greenbergs, and hundred of such ilk were approved for Government
employment.
I might say that on November 29 and December 2 of 1943 I made
two speeches on this very subject on the floor of the House, which
were responsible for my being asked to go on the Committee on Un-
American Activities at that time, and the information was denied
us on some hundred-odd employees we had under consideration at
the time. We were denied access to such information. The Civil
Service Commission does not want such record exposed to the light of
publicity. They do not want it to become known how totally unquali-
fied they were to administer an adequate loyalty program. One of the
most outstanding examples of the ability of the Communists to en-
sconce themselves in highly confidential Government positions is the
case of Carl Aldo Marzani. The Civil Service Commission knew
that Marzani had been an organizer for the Communist Party on
New York City's East Side ; they knew he had signed and circulated
Communist Party nominating petitions and in fact they had all the
information that was later introduced in the trial of Marzani. Yet the
Civil Service Commission put its stamp of approval on Marzani.
This, in my opinion, is the grossest kind of malfeasance and the per-
sons who ignored the evidence and recommended and rated Marzani
eligible should be indicted.
The record of the Civil Service Commission reveals all too plainly
that they placed incompetent and unqualified persons in positions
that enabled them to nullify the outstanding work of a corps of able
investigators.
On November 29, 1943, from the floor of the House I revealed the
instructions issued by the Civil Service Commission to its investi-
gators. Those instructions had the effect of hamstringing the loyalty
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 631
inquiries. I later learned that these instructions were prepared by
Alfred Klein, the chief attorney for the Civil Service Commission.
JNIr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, will Mr. Busbey yield and allow me
to ask a question in order to identify the member of the Civil Service
Commission'^
Mv. Busbey, Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Was he a Republican or a Democrat ?
Mr. Busbey. I am very sorry to say he is supposed to be a Re-
publican appointee on the Civil Service Commission, but in my judg-
ment, in view of his record, I have never recognized him as such.
[Laughter.]
Mr, Hebert. But he was the Republican member of the Commis-
sion ?
Mr. Busbey. Well, the Republican Party had nothing to do with
recommending or sponsoring or O. K.'ing Mr, Flemming's appoint-
ment to the Commission, It was done on the absolute authority of the
President of the United States at that time, Franklin Delano Roose-
velt, without consulting anyone, and Mr, Roosevelt picked him up as a
Republican.
Sir. Hebert, Of course, Mr. Busbey, we southerners have much
sympathy with such problems as you Republicans have.
Mr. Rankin. Governor Dewey was appointed by a Democratic
mayor of New York, you will remember.
Mr, Bi^sBEY, Mr, Chairman, I would like permission of the chair-
man to allow me to incorporate into the record at this point the
entire instructions to the investigators of the Civil Service Commis-
sion, released on November 3, 1943. I do not want to take the time
of the committee to read the entire document but there are just one
or two paragraphs of instructions that I think are very pertinent to
what vou are investigating.
Instruction No. 3 says :
Do not ask any question whatever involving* the applicant's sympathy with
Loyalists in Spain. This means that the investigator should avoid not only
asking about the applicant's sympathy with the Spanish War, but no reference
should be made to any such organizations as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade or
any other of the many Spanish relief groups. The whole matter of the war in
Spain should be scrupulously avoided by the investigator as having any bearing
on procommunism.
Now, anybody that knows anything about the Spanish situation
knows that the Loyalists in Spain and the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
were definitely 100-percent Communist outfits. The Veterans of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade has been on the list of Attorney General
Tom Clark as one of the Communist-front organizations.
I may say in passing that while this instruction 3 on this instruc-
tion sheet refers to the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, on Tom Clark's
list it appears as Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. The
reason it appears as Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade is that
those who are not veterans didn't come back.
No. 4 reads :
Do not ask any quest lop about membership in the Washington Book Sliop or
any book shop in any city similai" to the Washington Book Shop.
Now, mind you, gentlemen, these are the instructions of the Com-
mission to those investigators that prohibited them from finding out
632 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGP]
anything about any Communist activities of anyone they were in-
vestigating.
Mr. Rankin. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr, BusBEY. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. The same rule applies under the FEPC in the State
of New York. You can't ask a man those questions. A man who is
employing employees under the law of that State can't ask a man
Avhere he is from or what his name was before it was changed or what
organizations he belongs to. This is following in the wake of that.
Mr. MuNDT. You may proceed.
Mr. BusBEY. Instruction No. 5 reads :
In asking an applicant whether he knows a certain individual, that individual
should not be characterized in any way so as to show the individual's views
or leanings. For illustration, an applicant should not be asked : "Do you know
Jolni Jones, reputed to be a Communist?" Tlie question, if at all necessary,
should be : "Do you know John Jones, and what has been the nature of your
association with him?"
Rule 6 reads :
Do not ask a husband, who is an applicant, questions about his wife and do
not ask a wife, who is an applicant, questions about her husband. Ask the
applicant only as to matters liaving to do with himself but not with members
of his family or others.
I am going to show you in just a moment where that is essential
because there is a certain person in a key position in this Government
whose wife has been a Iniown Communist out in the open for many
years.
Mr. Rankin. That same regulation is written into the FEPC law
in New York.
Mr. McDowell. What is the difference?
Mr. Rankin. It is just this: The Communists seem to have got
their hands in this FEPC in the State of New York and all over the
country and it is just the same old pattern. They have written those
regulations, just exactly what the gentleman from Illinois has read
there. They have written the same regulations into the law of the
State of New York, which was signed by Mr. Dewey with 22 pens.
Mr. BusBEY. Skipping down to instruction 8 :
In speaking to the applicant or to a witness, do not characterize an organiza-
tion as communistic or Fascist. Do not characterize it at all. Do not say, "We
have information that you have been active in the Intei-national Labor Defense, a
Communist organization." Say, rather: "We have information that you have
been connected with the International Labor Defense. Have you been asso-
ciated with this organization ard what has been the nature of such as.sociation?"
I will read just one more instruction, No. 9 :
Do not ask a witness any question in such form that the witness may derive
information regarding the applicant which he otherwise would not have.
Just get that, will you ? Just let me read that again :
Do not ask a witness any question in such form that the witness may derive
infttrmation regarding tlie applicant which he otherwise would not have.
To continue with the balance of No. 9 :
Remember that your task is to obtain information:and not give information.
Do not ask a witness whether John Jones, the applicant, is a Communist unless
you immediately follow with the question whether John Jones is a Fascist or
pro-Nazi. The same applies with respect to the questioning of the applicant
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 633
Gentlemen of the committee, I might say that that document is the
basis for the Conmuniists coming into the Government and hamstring-
ing any investigation. As a result of that investigation going out
to the investigators in the field, practically all of the good investigators
of the Civil Service Commission were so disgusted with having their
hands tied, men who had been in this field for many years, they
quit the Commission and they had nobody down there who knows
anything about the subject of communism.
(The instructions to the regional directors follow:)
United States Civil Service Commission,
Washington, D. C, November 3, 1943.
Regional Directors:
The Manual of Instructions on Loyalty Investigations, which was fully dis-
cussed with regional directors and a copy of which was placed in the hands of
every regional director and investigator in charge for the guidance of investi-
gators, contained detailed information regarding methods of investigation and
questions to be avoided. Previously definite instructions had been issued that no
questions should be asked regarding union membership or activities. It has
i-ecently come to the attention of the Commission that investigators have been
asking persons under investigation, and witnesses, questions which the Commis-
sion had specifically directed should not be asked. In order that such offenses
be not repeated, there is set forth below a list of the things investigators should
continually have in mind. Copies of these instructions should be immediately
placed in the hands of every investigator.
1. Under no circumstances should any question be asked of an applicant or
a witness involving union membership, union associations, or union activities.
Not only should the applicant not be asked about membership in a union but any
question should l)e avoided which might elicit from the applicant or from a witness
union membership or activities.
2. If in the course of the investigation witnesses say that a certain person is
a Communist because he has associated with certain persons in a union known
or said to be Communists, the investigator should not ask the applicant about
his association with these particular individuals, since the asking of such ques-
tions would expose the Conunission to the charge tliat this is an indirect way of
connecting the applicant with union activities. In other words, the question of
unionism should not be brought up in any way in an investigation, either directly
or indirectly.
3. Do not ask any question whatever involving the applicant's sympathy with
Loyalists in Spain. This means that the investigator should avoid not only ask-
ing about the applicant's sympathy in the Spanish war but no reference should
be made to any such organizations as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade or any otlier
of the many Spanish relief groups. The wliole matter of the war in Spain should
be scrupulously avoided by the investigator as having any bearing on procom-
munism.
4. Do not ask any question about membership in the Washington Book Shop
or any book shop in any city similar to the Washington Book Shop.
5. In asking an applicant whether he knows a certain individual, that indi-
vidual should not be characterized in any way so as to show the individual's views
or leanings. For illustration, an applicant should not be asked : "Do you know
Jolm Jones, I'eputed to be a Communist?" The question, if at all necessary,
should be : "Do you know Jolm Jones, and what has been the nature of your
association with him?"
6. Do not ask a husband, who is an applicant, questions about his wife, and
do not ask a wife, who is an applicant, questions about her husband. Ask the
applicant only as to matters having to do with himself but not with members
of his family or others.
7. During the special interview never argue with the applicant or indicate that
you think he is evasive. Simply ask the question and record the answer. If it
is your opinion that the applicant is evasive or untruthful, you may say so in
your report and give the basis for your statement.
8. In speaking to the applicant or to a witness do not characterize an organi-
zation as communistic or Fascist. Do not characterize it at all. Do not say :
"We have information that you have been active in the International Labor
634 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Defense, a Communist organization." Say, rather : "We have information that
you have been connected with the International Labor Defense. Have you been
associated with this organization and what has been the nature of such asso-
ciation?"
9. Do not asls a witness any question in such form that the witness may
derive information regarding the applicant which he otherwise would not have.
Remember that your task is to obtain information and not give information. Do
not ask a witness whether John Jones, applicant, is a Communist unless you
immediately follow with the question whether John Jones is a Fascist or pro-
Nazi. The same applies with respect to the questioning of the applicant.
10. Under no circumstances ask any question or make any statement to the
applicant or to a witness relating directly or indirectly to the color, race, creed,
or religion of an applicant or witness.
11. Obtain all available information from witnesses which will help establish
whether the applicant was a Communist Party line conformist. Do not discuss
the party line with the applicant or with witnesses. Familiarize yourself thor-
oughly with the party line test and ask questions which will s]iecifically bring
out whether the applicant changed his views at certain periods but do not men-
tion party line unless the witness offers the information that the applicant did
follow the Communist Party line. In.that event ask the witness specillcally what
statement or actions on the part of the applicant he has in mind or knows
about which leads him to the conclusion that the applicant was a party line
follower. Again, have in mind it is not your function to argue or give informa-
tion but merely to elicit information. Attached hereto you will find a statement
which will help you to understand what is meant by the Communist Party line.
12. Do not ask any question regarding the type of reading matter read by
the applicant. This includes especially the Daily Worker and all radical and
liberal publications. Remember that the mere fact that a person reads a certain
publication is no indication that he believes in the principles advocated by such
publication. Citizens are free to read anything they like.
13. Do not ask any questions as to so-called mixed parties, that is to say,
whether the applicant associates with Negroes or has had Negroes in his home.
14. Do not ask regarding membership or interest in the Lawyers Guild, the
American Civil Liberties Union, the Socialist Party, the League of Women
Shoppers, or the Harry Bridges Defense Committee. This is not a complete
list of organizations about which no questions should be asked, but investigators
should avoid asking any questions regarding any organization unless it has
been authoritatively designated as subversive. If the investigator is in doubt the
best policy is not to ask the question.
15. Do not ask general questions regarding the political philosophy of the
applicant, such as, whether he believes in capitalism or what his opinion is re-
garding certain events of a current or historical nature.
16. Do not ask intimate personal questions. Do not ask such questions as
come under the category of "snooping."
17. Exercise intelligence. Keep in mind what you are looking for. Remember
that you are investigating the loyalty of the applicant to the United States. You
are not investigating whether his views are unorthodox or do not conform with
those of the majority of the people. What you are looking for is to determine
whether there is evidence that the applicant's interest in the welfare of another
country transcends his interest in the welfare of the United States. Remember
that a question of an improper nature will result in criticism of, and embarrass-
ment to, the Conmiission. Do not ask any question which is immaterial and
has no bearing on the ultimate issue involved.
18. The investigator conducting a loyalty investigation should also conduct
any special hearing which may be required. However, newly employed investi-
gators or investigators without experience in loyalty cases should discuss the
questions to be asked during the special hearing with their supervisors. Where
feasible an investigator thoroughly experienced in loyalty matters should sit in
on all special hearings in which derogatory information relative to loyalty is
to be discussed.
From time to time you will receive additional instructions as to what to do
and what not to do in the course of investigation of loyalty cases. The foregoing
instructions are to be rigidly observed and any deviation therefrom will be
cause for disciplinary action.
L. A. MOYER,
Executive Director and Chief Examiner.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 635
Mr. Alfred Klein, who wrote those instructions, is the same Klein
whose decision in one case has been so widely quoted. Mr. Klein said :
If I had to express an opinion as to whetlier the applicant is a Communist, my
reply would be in the afiirniative. However, I am constrained to recommend
that the applicant be rated eligible.
]Mr. Klein should be called upon to tell who or what constrained him
to recommend eligibility for a person he believed to be a Communist.
However, Mr. Klein is one of the men whose opinions on loyalt}^ cases
the Civil Service Commission considered essential. Such infantile
remarks amply demonstrate the unfitness of this Commission official
to judge any case involving loyalty. It is my opinion that it is safe to
say that the records of the Civif Service Commission contain many
such idiotic remarks by Mr. Klein.
Mr. Raxkin. How do you spell that name Klein?
Mr. BusBEY. K-1-e-i-n.
]\Ir. Rankin. Is that Alfred Klein?
Mr. BusEEY. Yes. Call it malfeasance, misfeasance, nonfeasance, or
what you will, it supports my contention that the Civil Service Com-
mission bungled the job of keeping undesirables from the Government
service.
Now that these disloyal and potentially disloyal persons did succeed
in getting into Government positions, the question arose after VJ-day
of how to get them out.
On March 21. 1947, the President issued an Executive order prescrib-
ing procedures for the administration of an employees loyalty program-
in the executive branch of the Government. This orcler placed the
responsibility on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for conducting
all lo3'alty investigations. It placed the responsibility on the Civil
Service Commission to see that disloyal persons were not permitted to
obtain Government positions and it placed the responsibility on the
head of each department and agency to see that disloyal employees
are not retained.
The Executive order also established within the Civil Service Com-
mission "'a Loyalty Review Board of not less than three impartial
persons."
Congress was then asked to appropriate funds to carry out the provi-
sions of this Executive order. To date Congress has appropriated
$7,000,000 to the Civil Service Commission to be used exclusively on
the loyalt}' program as enunciated in the President's Executive order.
Half of this amount was appropriated for the fiscal year of 1948 and
the other half for the fiscal year of 1949. Thus we know that the
Civil Service Commission has spent at least 314 million dollars during
the fiscal year of 1948 in ridding the Government service of persons of
questionable loj^alty.
Xow, let's look at the effectiveness of the manner in which this loyalty
program has been administered. I'll give but two examples, one case
under the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission and the other
case under the jurisdiction of the liead of an agency.
The first case is that of William Remington. This man was per-
mitted to transfer from one Government agenc}^ to another without
any clearance from the FBI. According to the recent testimony of
Miss Elizabeth Bentley, she informed the FBI in 1945 of her associa-
tion and the activities of Remington. Now one of two things oc-
■636 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ciirred — either the Civil Service Commission permitted tlie transfer of
Eemington without benefit of a report from the FBI or they per-
jnitted the transfer without regard to the information from the FBI.
In either case the Civil Service Connnission erred.
The other case is that of Jesse Epstein, employed by the Federal
Public Housing Committee.
Incidentally, if you want to read the record of Mr. Jesse Epstein,
I recommend a reading of the first report of un-American activities in
Washington State that is just off the press. His whole history is in
there.
Mr. Epstein was identified as a member of the professional unit of
the Communist Party in Seattle, Wash. The loyalty board of the
Federal Public Housing Authority, acting under the Presidential di-
rective of March 21, 1947, cleared Mr. Epstein and the Loyalty Review
Board of the Civil Service Commission approved it.
These tAvo cases, standing alone, show the ineffectiveness of the
Civil Service Commission and the Executive order. Further proof is
the statement of the chairman of the Loyalty Review Board made
several days ago that no Government employee had been removed
from the service under the provisions of the Executive order.
That is quoted in the Washington News of July 28. He admits
that not a single person has been removed from tlie pay rolls under
this Executive order, notwithstanding the fact they have spent,
or I should say squandered, these millions of dollars of the tax-
■ p)ayers' money.
Mr. MuNDT. Can you identify the man who made that statement ?
Mr. BusBEY. The man referred to in the paper as having made that
statement is Mr. Seth Richardson, of the Loyalty Review Board.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you.
Mr. BusBEY. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is spending the
funds Congress appropriated in the manner contemplated. They have
conducted thousands of investigations as provided by the Executive
order and they are still making investigations. In view of the recent
disclosures before two congressional committees, no one can be heard
to say that the FBI is without information about the questionable
activities of Government employees. But what good has it done ?
The Civil Service Commission has failed miserably in its duty and
the Executive order has proved to be worthless as an instrument to
rid the Government of employees of questionable loyalty.
The Civil Service Commission cannot be heard to say that they did
not have sufficient funds to carry out the part assigned to them by the
Executive order.
Mr. Chairman, I am leading up to simply this: On March 22, 1947,
President Truman issued Executive Order 9835, ostensibly for the pur-
pose of ridding the Federal Government of Communists, Communist
sympathizers, fellow travelers, and anyone considered disloyal or
subversive.
The following day, Sunday, March 23, 1947, papers were carrying
big headlines to the effect that they would be removed, and I quote
from the Washington Post. "Truman wants disloyal employees fired";
the Times-Herald carried a big headline on the same date, "Truman
wants reds fired from U. S. jobs." In the Washington Star of the
same date appeared the headline, "Truman Avants FBI to weed out
all disloyal Federal workers."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 637
The people of the United States were exceedingly happy over this
turn of events and thought the President sincere in his announcement.
Under Executive Order 08o5 a Loyalty Keview Board was set up in
the United States Civil Service Commission to handle these cases;
but, notwithstanding the fact that Congress to date has appropriated
over; $17,000,000 for this specific purpose in cooperation with the
President, in the hope that he was sincere in his statement, the results
so far are zero. It is my personal opinion that outside of the work
done by the FBI and the records they have compiled from the amount
that was allotted to them, the money has been squandered and abso-
lutely no results obtained.
It is not surprising to me that this Loyalty Review Board has done
nothing, because if you will look over the 23 names originaly appointed
to this Board you will readily come to the conclusion that not a single
one of them is qualified to pass on cases of loyalty or security risk. It
is my belief that if the President of the L^nited States had been sincere
in wanting to rid the Federal Government of the hundreds of unde-
sirables he would have insisted that a board of coiupetent and experi-
enced men in the field of communism be appointed.
It was shameful and disgraceful to have misled the American people
into thinking that something was going to be done by the present
administration to clean out all of these undesirables in order to detract
their minds from the fact that the Civil Service Commission had not
performed its duty in declaring these people ineligible and removing'
them from the pay roll.
I am well aware of the terrific smear campaign carried on against
this committee and its members by tlie Communists of this country
in order to discredit the work you have been doing to see that only
people whose loyalty cannot be questioned remain on the pay roll. The
l^eople of this countrj^ owe undying gratitude to this committee for the
wonderful work being done at the ]iresent time.
It is my further opinion that if President Truman was sincere in
his desire to rid our Federal Government of employees from high
places in important key positions who are definitely a security risk
to the future welfare and security of our Government, in light of
present-day conditions, he would want all departments of Govern-
ment to make available immediately all information in the files of
the various departments, the FBI, and the Civil Service Commission,
to all proper congressional investigating committees. The fact that
he has thrown every possible obstacle in the wa}^ of this committee, as
well as other committees, from obtaining information that is rightly
due them can only lead to one conclusion, in my mind, and that is that
he does not want the truth to come out because it would be em-
barrassing to the present administration and reflect on the heads of
the various departments who, notwithstanding the fact that they
have had information given them which is in their files at the present
time, have not had the courage to take the necessary steps to sever
these individuals from the pay roll or have willfully neglected to do
so for political reasons. The investigation your committee is now
conducting is far above any partisan consideration. Loyalty to one's
country comes ahead of any political part3\
One more suggestion and I am through. I think this Committee
to Investigate Un-American Activities should constantly appeal to
the conscience of other people like Miss Bentle}^, Professor Budenz,
638 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and Mr. Whittaker Chambers to repudiate their Communist comrades
and come forward to give testimony in behalf of our country.
In view of the little we have learned of the activities of the Civil
Service Commission in placing, or allowing to be placed, Communists
and Communist sympathizers in important Government positions,
I am firmly convinced that if President Truman was sincere h\ his
desire to remove from the Government service all persons of ques-
tionable loyalty, he would not have delegated any authority under
his Executive order to the Civil Service Commission.
jVIr. MuNDT. I have no questions. The Congressman has made a
very excellent statement here.
I would like to say that if he or any other person should go down
to the chambers of the Committee on Un-American Activities now,
they would probably find four or five agents of the Civil Service
Commission down there checking the files of the committee in tlieir
loyalty investigation. They will also probably find several FBI
agents there, and also agents from the Navy, the State Department,
the Treasury Department, and every other agency of the Govern-
ment. Those men have been there, if I am correct, about 22,000
times since those files were made available to all proper agencies of
tlie United States Government.
In view of the fact that it is becoming more and more difficult
for committees of either the House or the other body to get any
information from the executive branch of the Government, I am
wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea for the committee to over-
haul its thinking on those matters, and I intend to suggest that at
our executive meeting this afternoon.
That is all I have. Are there any questions ?
Mr. BusBEY. I can personally testify to the correctness of your
statement or observation, because I am in the files of your committee
nearly every day, and I see these people working there from these
various agencies of Government.
Mr. McDowell. That is right ; and I check them every day.
Mr. Eankix. Mr. Chairman, this committee has consistently sup-
plieil information to the various departments of the Government, and
until tlie FBI is made an independent agency, the various departments
of the Government are going to have to look to this committee for
such information, and I don't think we should withhold it from them
if they are honestly attempting to secure it.
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, in connection with this matter I think
it would be well if I would be so bold as to suggest to the committee
that when Mr. Wallace was Secretary of Agriculture and the AAA i^ro-
gram was established, you will find many of these individuals whose
names are coming out in this investigation were members of that AAA
program. Such names as Lee Pressman, Alger Pliss, Nathan Witt, and,
as you will recall. Professor Tugwell were down there at that time.
From my observations and my conclusions I would say that while the
AAA program was established in the Department of Agriculture un-
der Henry Wallace, that could rightfully be termed the spawning
ground of all Coinmunists in Government, because from this little
group in the AAA, they fanned out into all branches of Government.
I respectfully suggest that it might be worth while to go back into
the old rolls in 1033. One of the key movers down there was a
Harold Ware, the son of Ella Reeve Bloor, affectionately known among
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 639
tlie Comniiinists as Mother Bloor, and he was one of the keymen at
that time in bi-inoiug- Communists into this Government, and they
were fanning out from the spawning ground down there in the AAA.
I might respectfully suggest not only to the committee but to every-
one that they read the remarks of Chairman Rees, of the Committee
on Civil Service and Post Office, in yesterday's Record, on page 9935.
They are quite enlightening on this subject.
Mr, Mi^NDT. Ml". Nixon.
■ Mr. Nixox. Mr. Busbey, I understand from j^our statement that
Gregory Silvermaster is still eligible for Government employment;
and that as far as the Civil Service Commission is concerned, the door
is still open for him to come into the Government.
jNIr. Bi 8BEY. As far as I know, there is nothing in the Civil Service
Commission files that would prevent him coming back. There is
information which, in my opinion, should prevent him coming back
to the Government, but they would take the case under consideration
if he applied again.
Uv. 3.IUNDT. :Mr. Hebert.
]\Ir. Hebert. No questions.
Mr. MuxDT. ;Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. If they go to New York and they ask for employment,
they can't even ask a man whether he is a Communist, and so he can
find a safe storm cellar.
]Mr. MuNDT. Is there anything further?
Mr. Busbey. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to have inserted in
the record this clipping from the Washington News of Wednesday,
July 28, 1948, and also an article from the Washington Post dated
Wednesday, February 6, 1935.
(The two clippings referred to above are as follows :)
[From the News (Washington), Wednesday, July 2S, 1948]
(Front page:)
Rees To Name United States Workers Who Ought To Be Fired
truman's loyalty check is ineffective, he says
(Page 3:)
Representative Rees To Name Disloyal Workers
(By United Press)
House Post Office and Civil Service Committee Cliairman Edvpard H. Rees
(Republican, Kansas) said today he will name on the House floor sometime in
the next few days some disloyal Government workers who should be dismissed.
He made the statement in charging President Truman's loyalty check on Fed-
eral employees has been ineffective. His Civil Service Committee, he added, in-
tends to find out why.
Repi-esentative Rees said he was particularly concerned about the 5,510 Federal
job holders whose loyalty was investigated by the FBI in full-scale field inquiries.
He said as far as he can find out, not a single Federal worker has been fired
under the President's $12,000,000 year-old program.
Under the program, the FBI is obliged to investigate the loyalty of any Federal
employee about whom it has derogatory information in its files.
"Aside from the 43S employees who resigned from their positions during FBI
investigations," said Rees, "the program has been ineffective."
Representative Rees set no date for hearings. He said he hopes to get started
during the special session of Congress. If this is not possible, a subcommittee
■ may take over the job after adjournment.
640 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Meantime Rees promised to name on the House floor sometime in the next few
days some Government workers who, he said, ought to be fired. He emphasized,
though, that the overwhelming majority of Federal workers are loyal.
The Kansan said loyalty officials, acting under orders from President Truman,,
have refused his request for information on 5,510 cases in which full FBI investi-
gations have been ordered.
(Chairman Seth Richardson, of the Loyalty Review Board told the United Press
that in cases appealed to his top-level board, no worker has been discharged. He
said he did not know offhand whether individual loyalty boards, within Govern-
ment agencies, had prompted any firings.)
"For more than 3 years," said Rees, "I have urged the executive branch to
eliminate Federal employees who advocate Communist Party doctrines and be-
lieve in the forcible overthrow of our form of government. On numerous occa-
sions I have advised Congress as to the continued employment of persons about
whom there was a reasonable doubt of their loyalty to the United States. In
each instance the executive branch has refused me information."
New Loyalty Inquiry
Representative Ed Rees (Republican, Kansas) says his House Civil Service
Committee will hold hearings on the progress of the Federal employee loyalty
program. And in all probability, these hearings will take place during Congress.
Mr. Rees charged today that, except for the 438 employees who have resigned
while under FBI investigation, the loyalty program has been ineffective.
He said "no information is available" on 5,510 employees found suspect by the
FBI who still remain on their pay roll.
President Truman, Mr. Rees pointed out, has given strict orders that Federal
agencies must not release loyalty case data to Congress without prior approval
from the White House. He implied that this is the reason no information is
available on the 5,510 cases.
During the committee hearings, INIr. Rees said, agency loyalty boards will be
asked to give full details on their policies, procedures, and accomplishments. He
added :
"Unless the FBI investigations are seriously considered by the loyalty boards
and disloyal employees removed from the pay roll, the $12,000,000 spent on the
loyalty program will have been wasted."
[From the Washington Post, Wednesday, February 6, 1935, pp. 1 and 3]
Frank Loses Post in AAA Shake-up
counsel's JOR abolished, duties transferred ; HOWE, ALSO LEFT-WINGER,
BELIEVED ELIMINATED FROM KEY POSITION ; REORGANIZATION VIEWED VICTORY FOR
DAVIS OVER TUG well's FACTION
A drastic shake-up was announced by the Agricultural Adjustment Adminis-
tration last night, resulting in elimination of Jerome Frank, one of the best-known
New Deal legal lights and a close associate of Under Secretary of Agriculture
Rexford Guy Tugwell.
Frank's post as counsel for AAA was abolished and its functions transferred
to the office of the Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture.
Another well-known left-winger, Frederic C. Howe, consumers' counsel, appears
to have been shuffled out of his key position. His post was merged into a new
operating council. It was understood he would not retain his position, but
whether he would remain in some other capacity was not clear.
Three others in the Administration are understood to have resigned, two of
them members of Frank's legal staff. They are Victor Rotman, Chief of the
Marketing Agreement Section, and Francis M. Shea, Cliief of the Opinion Section.
The third resignation was that of Howe's assistant, Gardner Jackson, who was
recently mentioned by Representative Hamilton Fish as having contributed,
among others, to the rank and file committee seeking to promote a bonus march
on Washington.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 641
It was uncertain as to what another of Frank's assistants, Alger Hiss, would
do. It was understood Mr. David would be glad to retain him. He was recently-
assigned to assist Senator Nye's connuittee in its munitions investigation.
Lee Pressman, another member of Frank's legal staff, may resign.
TJie regTouping brought a number of subordinates into the new operating
council, which will function under Chester C. Davis, AAA Administrator.
Tliis development, which has been brewing for some time, appeared to be a
blow at the Tugwell wing in the Agriculture Department. Dr. Tugwell himself
is in Florida. In some quarters it was said he had no advance notice of the
reorganization. The shift was interpreted as indicating a victory for Mr. Davis
in an internal struggle with the brain trust left-wingers.
Officials said no specific thing caused the reorganization, but there was a con-
flict in personal views with Chester Davis and as was said lie had encountered
resistance in attempts to have his policies carried out.
Davis has held the function of the consumers' counsel was to analyze policies
and criticize them from the point of view of the consumer, reporting to the Admin-
istrator. It was said that Davis had been displeased in a number of instances
where the consumers' counsel chose to champion its views through publicity, thus
carrying its battle to the public instead of confining the discussions to officials
in the AAA.
Numerous clashes liave occurred over the AAA milk policies, with the con-
sumers' counsel charging that the Administration was too lenient with the middle-
men and distributors. The consumers' counsel challenged the action of the AAA
in dismissing two subordinate officials. Tlie counsel alleged the men were dropped
because of activities in fighting middlemen, while AAA officials insisted that they
had been impractical and visionary in attempts to handle the milk problems.
The .shake-up was reminiscent of a previous explosion more than a year ago
when George N. Peek was forced out as co-Admhiistrator of AAA after a bitter
controversy with Jerome Frank, who was bacl^ed by Dr. Tugwell. Brain trust
forces lost that battle, just as they appear to have lost ground in the present
shake-up.
Davis has insisted on a more conciliatory attitude toward business interests
involved in AAA policies, while Frank and his group insisted upon more drastic
regulatory measures.
The following announcement was issued at 7 o'clock last night :
"Reorganization of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration was announced
today by Chester C. Davis, Administrator.
"Mr. Davis announced that the reorganization follows several months of study
of ways and means to make the Administration a more efficient operating unit
of the Department of Agriculture.
CONSOLIDATION OF UNITS
"The reorganization will consolidate the AAA I^gal Division with the Office
of the Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture, will subdivide the Commodi-
ties Division into several smaller divisions reporting directly to the Adminis-
trator's office, and set up an operating council lieaded by tlie Secretary of Agri-
culture and the Administrator, with other executives as members.
"Effective at once and in conformity with the practice otherwise obtaining
in the Department of Agriculture, the legal work of the Agriculture Adjustment
Administration will be performed under the supervision and direction of the
Solicitor of the Department.
"In addition to the Secretary of Agriculture and the Administrator, members
of the operating council with their divisions include A. G. Black, in charge of
all livestock, including corn-hogs, cattle, and sheep ; Ward M Buckles, finance,
with the Office of the Comptroller transferred under his direction ; Cully A.
Cobb, cotton ; Victor A. Christgau, commodities purchase, agricultural labor,
drought, and other emergency programs ; J. B. Hutson, tobacco, sugar, peanuts,
and rice; George A. Farrell, wheat, flax, barley, rye, and other grains; Alfred D.
Stednian, information ; Jesse W. Tapp, dairy and other marketing agreements
and licenses, general crops, and field investigation; H R. Tolley, planning; Seth
Thomas, Solicitor of the Department .of Agriculture; the consumers counsel.
"The reorganization will group the sections of the Commodities Division into
six smaller divisions, each covering closely related activities."
80408 — 48 10
642 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
BROUGHT IN BY TUG WELL
Frank was brought into the AAA by Tugwell, to whom he had been recom-
mended by Felix Frankfurter, the Harvard legal light who has delivered many
proteges to the New Deal legal staff.
Secretary Wallace and Tugwell attempted first to make Frank Solicitor of
the Department, but this was blocked by Postmaster General Farley. Where-
upon, Secretary Wallace made him general counsel to»AAA, which the Secretary
had kept out of the general patronage market.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wishes to express the appreciation of the
committee for your testimony. You have gotten into a phase of this
investigation which is of very pertinent significance, and that is the
manner in which these Communists and espionage agents have been
able to weasel their way into Government, escape detection, and secure
promotion after they have been there.
What you have said has been very helpful. I have no other (jues-
tions.
The Chair wishes to say that there is something rather strange
and unusual about the fact that we are living in an era when the
executive departments have 22,000 times consulted the files of Un-
American Activities — we are glad to have the executive agencies do
that — ^but it is more than passing strange in my opinion tlfat in this
same era the President's loyalty policy has prevented the Members of
Congress from consulting the loyalty files of the executive department.
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I would like to state that
if it were possible to get into the files of the Civil Service Commission
you would find that they gave clearance to many Communists, Com-
munist sympathizers, and fellow travelers during the war witliout any
investigation whatever.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you very much, Mr. Busbey.
Call the next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I am.
Mr. MuNDT. Please stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hiss. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ALGEE HISS
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to make a brief state-
ment to the committee?
Mr. MuNDT. You may.
Mr. Stripling. Before you proceed, I want you to give the com-
mittee your full name and your i)resent address.
Mr. Hiss. My name is Alger Hiss. My residence is 22 East Eighth
Street, New York City.
Mr. Rankin. AVill you please give your age and place of birth?
Mr. Hiss. I was born in Baltimoi-e, Md., on November 11, 1904. I
am here at my own request to deny unqualifiedly various statements
about me which were made before this committee by one Whittaker
Chambers the day before yesterday. I appreciate the committee's hav-
ing prompt 1}^ granted my request, t welcome the opportunity to an-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 643
swer to the best of my ability any inquiries the members of this
committee may wish to ask me.
I am not and never have been a member of tlie Communist Party.
I do not and never liave adhered to the tenets of the Communist Party.
I am not and never liave been a member of any Communist-front or-
ganization. I have never followed the Communist Party line, directly
or indirectly. To the best of my knowledge, none o" my friends is a
Communist.
As a State Department official, I have had contacts with representa-
tives of foreign governments, some of whom have undoubtedly been
members of the Connnunist Party, as, for example, representatives of
the Soviet Gt)vernment. My contacts with any foreign representative
who could possibly have been a Communist have been strictly official.
To the best of my knowledge, I jiever heard of Whittaker Chambeis
until in 1047. when two representatives of the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation asked me if I knew him and various other people, some of
whom I knew and some of whom I did not knoAv. I said I did not know
Chambers. So far as I know, I have never laid eyes on him, and I
should like to have the opportunity to do so.
I have known Henry Collins since we were boys in camp together.
I knew him again while he was at the Harvard Business School while
I was at the Harvard Law School, and I have seen him from time to
time since I came to Washington in 1933.
Lee Pressman was in my class at the Harvard Law School and we
were both on the Harvard Law Review at the same time. We were
also both assistants to Judge Jerome Frank on the legal staff of the
Agricultural Adjustment Administration. Since I left the Depart-
ment of Agriculture I have seen him only occasionally and infre-
quently. I left the Department, according to my recollection, in
1935.
Witt and Abt were both members of the legal staff of the AAA. 1
knew them both in that capacity. I believe I met Witt in New York
a year or so before I came to Washington. I came to Washington
in 1933. We were both practicing law in New York at the time I think
I met Witt.
Kramer was in another office of the AAA, and I met him in that
connection.
I have seen none of these last three men I have mentioned except
most infrequently since I left the Department of Agriculture.
I don't believe I ever knew Victor Perlo.
Except as I have indicated, the statements made about me by Mr.
Chambers are complete fabrications. I think ni}^ record in the Gov-
ernment service speaks for itself.
Mr. MtKTDT. Does that conclude your statement, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. It does.
Mr. MuNDT, jVIr. Stripling, have you any questions ?
]\Ir. Stripling. JNlr. Chairman, while the witness answered some of
my questions, I wish to proceed to ask direct questions and get direct
replies.
Mr. MuNDT. You may proceed.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, would you give the committee a resume
of your educational background, please.
Mr. Hiss. I was educated in the public schools of Baltimore. I
spent 1 year after leaving the Baltimore City College, a high school,
644 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
after graduating there at a preparatory school in Massachusetts. I
then entered Johns Hopkins University from which I graduated with
an A. B. degree in 1926. I then entered the Harvard Law School
from which I graduated in 1929.
Mr. Stripling. Would you now give the committee a brief resume
of your Federal employment.
JNIr. Hiss. My first employment with the Federal Government was
immediately after my graduation from law school when I served as
a secretary to oie of the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of
the United States. I then went into private practice in Boston and
New York for a period of 3 years or so, and came to Washington on
the request of Government officials in IVIay 1933 as an assistant general
counsel to the xVgricultural Adjustment Administration.
Mr. Eankin. Will you give the name of that Justice, please.
Mr. Hiss. The Justice was Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Mr. Nixon. Would you please give the names of the Government
officials who requested you to come to Washington with the AAA?
Mr, Hiss. Yes. Judge Jerome Frank was general counsel. He
requested me to come to Washington to be an assistant on his staff.
Mr. Nixon. You said it in the plural. Was he the only one then ?
Mr. Hiss. There were some others. Is it necessary? There are so
many witnesses who use names rather loosely before your committee,
and I would rather limit mj^self .
Mr. Nixon. You made the statement
Mr. Hiss. The statement is correct.
Mr. Nixon. I don't question its correctness, but you indicated that
several Government officials requested you to come here and you have
issued a categorical denial to certain statements that were made by
Mr. Chambers concerning people that you were associated with in
Government. I think it would make your case much stronger if you
would indicate what Government officials.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, regardless of whether it strengthens my case
or not, I would prefer, unless you insist, not to mention any names in
my testimony that I don't feel are absolutely necessary. If you insist
on a direct answer to your question, I will comply.
Mr. Nixon. I would like to have a direct answer to tlie question.
Mr. Hiss. Another official of the Government of the United States
who strongly urged me to come to Washington after I had told Judge
Fi'ank I did not think I could financially afford to do so — and I am
answering this only because you ask it — was Justice Felix Frank-
furter.
Mr. Nixon. Is that all ?
Mr. Hiss. That is all I care to say now.
Mr. Nixon. Tliere were other officials, however?
Mr. Hiss. When I came to Washington for interviews with respect
to my proposed appointment, I also talked naturally to the Admin-
istrator of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, who would
have been my main chief. His name was George Peek. The co-
Administrator was Charles Bryan. Both of them urged me to
join the legal staff.
Mr. Nixon. That completes the group ?
Mr. Hiss. That completes it as far as I am concerned. I might"
think of a few others.
i
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 645
Mr. Stripling. Would you continue then with the chronology of
your Government employment ?
Mr. Hiss. A Senate committee known as the Committee Investi-
gating the Munitions Industry, of which Senator Nye was the chair-
man, formally requested the ibepartment of Agriculture to lend my
services to that committee in its investigations as their counsel. That
permission was granted and I served on the staff of the Senate com-
mittee. I haven't checked the dates recently, but my recollection is
that this w^as either early in 1934 or the latter part of 19oo. I think
it was early in 1934 when I first started on that committee.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat was your capacity ?
Mr. Hiss. I was counsel. The technical title was legal assistant.
Mr. Stripling. Go right ahead.
Mr. Hiss. AVhen I left the Senate committee I was next employed
in the office of the Solicitor General of the United States at my request,
Mr. Nixon. I apjjlied to the Solictor General for a position. There
was then before that office the constitutionality of the Agricultural
Adjustment Act. I was much interested in that, having worked on
many legal and administrative phases of the act, and I desired to work
on that case.
The then Solicitor General hired me. I remained until that case was
through.
Mr. Rankin. Who w^as the Solicitor General at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. Now Mr. Justice Stanley Reed. While I was still in the
Solicitor General's office, one of the cases I was working on involved
the constitutionality of the Trade Agreement Act. Mr. Francis B.
Sayre, then Assistant Secretary of State in charge of the Trade Agree-
ments Act, asked me to come to his office as his assistant to supervise the
preparation within the Department of State of the constitutional argu-
ments on the Trade Agreements Act. I did so and I remained in the
Department of State in various capacities until Janu;uy 15, 1947.
I entered the Department of State, I think it was, in September,
1936. I resigned in January, 1947, to accept the appointment to my
present position in private life to which I had been elected the preced-
ing December.
Mr. Rankin. What is that?
Mr. Hiss. I am president of the Carnegie Endowment for Inter-
national Peace.
Mr. Hebert. May I ask the witness a question in connection with
his present association ?
Mr. Mundt. Proceed.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know^ Mr. John Foster Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. I do. He is the chairman of my board of trustees.
Mr. Hebert. Did he assist you in any way in getting your present
position?
Mr. Hiss. He urged me to take my present position.
Mr. Hebert. Then you are in your present position through the
urging of Mr. John Foster Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. And other members of the board of trustees.
Mr. Hebert. But in particular, Mr. Dulles?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Dulles and others.
Mr. Hebert. But in particular Mr. Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I cannot answer it exactly in those terms.
646 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. AVas he the leading urgency?
Mr. Hiss. He was the chairman of the looarcl of trustees. I don't
think he was more nrgent for my services than some of the other
trustees.
Mr.HEBERT. But he first approached you?
Mr. Hiss. He first approached me.
Mr. MuNDT. In that connection, Mr. Hiss, I would like to ask a
question. Did you know at the time you were appointed to this posi-
tion that you hold with the Carnegie Foundation, did you know at the
time you were being considered for that position about the fact that
Chambers was supposed to have told Secretary Berle that you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. MuxDT. You had not heard that ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
]Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman, in that connection so much has been
said in the last 4 da^^s that I have forgotten entirely what charge was
made by Mr. Chambers. Would the chief investigator enlighten me?
Mr. MuNDT. I was going to interrogate the witness about that and I
will do that at this time for the benefit of Mr. McDowell.
Have you seen a transcript?
Mr. Hiss. I carefully read the entire transcript of Mr. Chambers'
testimon}^ before I came to this committee.
Mr. MiTNDT. Then I don't have to go into that in so much detail.
Mr. McDowell. I want to find out what was said.
Mr. MuNDT. I am getting to it. I want to say for one member of
the committee that it is extremely puzzling that a man who is senior
editor of Time Magazine, by the name of Whittaker Chambers, whom
I had never seen until a day or two ago, and whom you say you have
never seen
ISIr. Hiss. A:; far as I know, I have never seen him.
Mr. MuxDT. Should come before this committee and discuss the
Communist apparatus working in Washington, which he says is trans-
mitting secrets to the Russian Government, and he lists a group of
seven people — Nathan Witt, Lee Pressman, Victor Perlo, Charles
Kramer, John Abt, Harold Ware, Alger Hiss, and Donald Hiss
Mr. Hiss. That is eight.
Mr. MuNDT. There seems to be no question about the subversive
connections of the six other than the Hiss brothers, and I wonder
what possible motive a man who edits Time magazine would have for
mentioning Donald Hiss and Alger Hiss in connection with those
other six.
Mr. Hiss. So do I, Mr. Chairman. I have no possible understand-
ing of what could have motivated him. There are many possible
motives, I assume, but I am unable to understand it.
Mr. MuNDT. You can appreciate the position of this committee
when the name bobs up in connection with those associations.
Mr. Hiss. I hope the committee can appreciate my position, too.
Mr. MuNDT. We surely can and that is why we responded with
alacrity to your request to be heard.
Mr. Hiss. I appreciate that.
Mr. MuNDT. All we are trying to do is find the facts.
Mr. Hiss. I wish I could have seen Mr. Chambers before he testified.
Mr. Rankin. After all the smear attacks against this committee
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 647
and individual members of this committee in Time magazine, I am
]iot surprised at anything that comes out of anybody connected with it.
[Laughter.]
iVIr. INIuNDT. I believe that answers the situation as far as Mr. Mc-
Dowell is concerned.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman,
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Striplixg. I would like to ask the witness : Mr. Hiss, when did
YOU first hear of these allegations on the part of Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. May I answer that this way, Mr. Stripling? By saying
that the night before he testified a reporter for a New York paper
called me and said he had received a tip that Chambers was to testify
before this committee the next morning and that he would mention
me and would call me a Communist.
Mr, Stripling. You say you have never seen Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. The name means absolutely nothing to me, IMr. Stripling.
]Mr. Stripling. I have here, Mr. Chairman, a picture which was
made last Monday by the Associated Press. I understand from
people who knew Mr. Chambers during 1934 and '35 that he is much
heavier today than he was at that time, but I show you this picture,
]Mr. Hiss, and ask you if jou have ever known an individual who
resembles this picture.
Mr, Hiss. I would much rather see the indiA'idual. I have looked
at all the pictures I was able to get hold of in, I think it was, yester-
day's paper which had the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr.
Chambers, he is not particularly unusual looking. He looks like a lot
of people. I might even mistake him for the chairman of this com-
mittee. [Laughter.]
Mr. Mundt. I hope you are wrong in that.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't mean to be facetious but very seriously, I would
not want to take oath that I have never seen that man. I would like
to see him and then I think I would be better able to tell whether
I had ever seen him. Is he here today?
Mr. Mundt. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hiss. I hoped he would be.
Mr. Mundt. You realize that this man whose picture you have just
looked at, under sworn testimony before this committee, where all
the laws of perjury apply, testified that he called at your home, con-
ferred at great length, saw your wife pick up the telephone and call
somebody whom he said must have been a Communist, plead with
you to divert yourself fi;om Communist activities, and left you with
tears in your eyes, saying, "I simply can't make the sacrifice."
Mr. Hiss. I do know that he said that. I also know that I am
testifying under those same laws to the direct contrary.
JSIr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, could I pursue one point ?
IMr. Mundt. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. You say you first heard of Mr. Chambers' accusations
against you, concerning you, the night before he testified?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to amplify that by saying I also had heard
in the course of last winter indirectly that a man named Chambers
was calling me a Communist. I heard that while I was in New York
last year, but I did not know
Mr. Stripling. Did the FBI investigate you?
Mr. Hiss. Two agents of the FBI, as I stated in my initial state-
ment, came to see me in my office after I had left the Government.
648 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I think it was in May 1947. They asked me about various indi-
viduals. They also asked me if I was a Conununist. They asked
me a number of questions not unlike the points Mr. Chambers testified
to in the course of their investigation. They asked me if I knew the
names of a number of people.
One of those names was Chambers. I remember very distinctly
because I had never heard the name Whittaker Chambers. They asked
me first if I knew anyone named Chambers, and I did.
• Mr. Stripling. Were you investigated under the loyalty program ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I don't know.
Mr, Stripling. You went to the FBI and made a statement ?
Mr. Hiss. In 1946, shortly after I came back from London where
I had been at the first meeting of the General Assembly of the United
Nations, Mr. Justice Byrnes, then Secretary of State and my chief,
called me into his office. He said that several Members of Congress
were preparing to make statements on the floor of Congress that I
was a Communist. He asked me if I were, and I said I was not.
He said, "This is a very serious matter. I think all the stories center
from the FBI. I think they are the people who have obtained what-
ever information has been obtained. I think you would be well
advised to go directly to the FBI and offer yourself for a very full
inquiry and investigation."
He also said he thought it would be sensible for me to go to the top
man, and I agreed.
I immediately went to my own office, put in a call for Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, who was not in town. I was courteously received by his
second in command. I think it was Mr. Tamm in those days. I
saw Mr. Tamm fairly shortly after that at his convenience. He
arranged an appointment. I am not absolutely sure he was the one
I saw. He was the one I called and talked to.
I told him my conversation with the Secretary of State and said
I offered myself for any inquiry. They said did I have any state- "
ment to make? I said I was glad to make any statement upon any
subject they suggested, and they had no specific one initially. So I
simply recited every organization I had been connected with to see if
that could possibly be of any significance to them. They asked me if
I knew certain individuals. Among the names I remember was that
of Lee Pressman. I told them how I had known him and the extent
to which I had known him as I have before this committee. They did
not mention the name Chambers, I am quite sure.
Mr. Stripling. Did they mention Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I am quite sure the first time I ever heard that name was
in May 1947 when two other agents of the FBI came to my office— I
was not then in Government — at 700 Jackson Place and interro-
gated me.
Mr. Stripling. You were not aware that Mr. Chambers had given
this affidavit to the Federal authorities ?
Mr. Hiss. I was not.
Mr. Stripling. In which your name and that of your wife was
connected ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly was not.
Mr. Rankin. When was it you were called into Justice Byrnes'
office ?
Mr, Hiss. I think it was about March or April 1946, Mr. Rankin.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 649
jNIr. ]VIcDt)AVj:LL. Mr. Hiss, didn't you call on me early this year?
Mr. Hiss. I did, Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I recall now.
Mr. Hiss. Under very different connections.
Mr. jMcDowell. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. JSIr. Berle never told you anything of his conversa-
tions ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Berle never spoke to me about this subject.
Mr. Hebert. Never discussed the possibility that you were a Com-
munist or the charges that you were a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; he did not.
Mr. ]\IuxDT. Can you think of anything which might throw any
light on the reason why these charges have been made, either by Cham-
bers or by some Members of Congress? Anything in your association
other than the fact that you were thrown in connection with Pressman
as a part of your official duties ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, as to the Members of Congress, I have the
same impression the Secretary of State had — that their information all
came from the same source. As to the FBI information, it seems in
the light of Chambers' testimony that they, too, had only that source
of information. I have no basis, as I said before, for imagining why
he should have used my name.
JNIr. jMundt. Have you ever belonged to any of the organizations the
Attorney General's office has listed ?
Mr. Hiss. I have not, Mr. Chairman, and I so stated in my opening
remarks.
Mv. Mundt. Has your wife ever belonged ?
Mr. Hiss. She has not, to the best of my knowledge — and I think I
would know.
Mr. Mundt. She has never been a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. She has not. Again I must say under oath, to the best
of my knowledge. I think my knowledge is better than Mr. Chambers
on that.
Mr. MuNDT. Especially about your wife.
]Mr. Hiss. That is what I am saying.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, do you know Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not. As far as I know, I have never seen him.
Mr. RaxkijV. Before you get to that, may I ask you if you are a
member of a church ?
Mr. Hiss. I am. I have been an Episcopalian all my life.
Mr. Rankix. Is your wife a member of a church ?
Mr. Hiss. JSIy wife is a member of the Society of Friends.
Mr. Rankix. That is what we call the Quaker Church, is it not ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct. It isn't a church exactly ; it is a society,
a religious society.
Mr. Raxkix. a religious society ?
Mr. Hiss. It is, indeed.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Hiss, where were you residing in 1935?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, I am afraid I would have to consult copies
of old leases and things.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever live in Georgetown ?
Mr. Hiss. I have lived in Georgetown most of the time I have been
in Washington.
650 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did you live on P Street ?
Mr. Hiss. I owned a house on P Street the last few years I was in-
Washinglon. That was the only time I ever owned property in Wash-
ington. I was a renter before that.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to refer to the testimony Mr. Chambers
gave on Monday and read it to the witness :
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Communist Party in 1937, did you approach
any of these seven to break with you?
Mr. Chambers. No. The only one of those people who I approached was Alger
Hiss. I went to Hiss' home in the evening at what I considered considerable
risk to myself and found Mr. Hiss at home. Mrs. Hiss was also a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. MuNDT. Mrs. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Alger Hiss. Mrs. Donald Hiss, I believe, is not. Mrs.
Hiss attempted \thile I was there to make a call, which I can only presume was
to other Communists, but I quickly went to the telephone and she hung up and
Mr. Hiss came in shortly afterwai'd and we talked and I tried to break him away
from the party. As a matter of fact, he cried when we separated. When I left
him, he absolutely refused to break.
I\Ir. McDowell. He cried?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; he did. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. He must have given you some reason why he did not want to
sever tlie relationship.
Mr. Chambers. His reason was simply the party line.
Now, Mr. Chairman, in the affidavit which Mr. Chambers made to
the Federal authorities a few years ago, he stated that he went to Mr.
Hiss' home in Georgetown. You neA^er recall any individual, whether
under the name of Chambers or any other name- coming to your home
in Georgetown and such a conversation as this?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly do not.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, there is very sharp contradiction
here in the testimony. I certainly suggest Mr. Chambers be brought
back before the committee and clear this up.
Mr. MuNDT. It Avould seem that the testimony is diametricallv op-
posed and it comes from two witnesses whom normally one would as-
sume to be perfectly reliable. They have high positions in American
business or organizational work. They both appear to be honest.
They both testify under oath. Certainly the committee and the coun-
try must be badly confused about why these stories fail to jibe so
completely.
I think we have neglected to ask you, Mr. Hiss, one other possible
clue to this situation. It could be that Mr. Chambers has mistaken
you for your brother. Would you know if he would testify under
oath whether your brother has ever belonged to any subversive or-
ganizations or is a Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I am not a qualified witness to testify absolutely. I
would like to say that absolutely in my opinion he is not and never
has been.
Mr. IVIuNDT. So far as you know.
Mr. McDowell. Is he your younger brother.
Mr. Hiss. He is a younger brother.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know he has never belonged to any of the or-
ganizations listed?
Mr. Hiss. So far as I know he has never belonged to any organiza-
tion that could be called a Communist front organization.
Mr. MuNDT. Unless there ai'e other questions from the committee
members
fe
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 651
Mr. Rankin. Have you ever belonged to any Comnnmist front or-
ganizations^
Mr. Hiss. No, Mr. Rankin. As I testified at the beginning of my
testimony, I have not.
Mr. Rankin. You are not a member of tlie Soutliern Conference
for Human Welfare, then ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I am not.
Mr. MuNDT. ]\Ir. Nixon ?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think in justice to both of these wit-
nesses and in order to avoid what might be a useless appearance on
the part of Mr. Chambers, when arrangements are made for his being
here, that the witnesses be allowed to confront each other so that any
possibility of a mistake in identity may be cleared up. It may be
that Mr. Chambers' appearance has changed through the years but
it is quite apparent that Mr. Hiss has not put on much weight. He
must have been very thin before if he did.
I think if there is mistaken identity on Mr. Chambers' part he will
be able to recall it when he confronts Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. JNIr. Chairman, may I ask a few questions here?
I have a list of people here I would like to ask the witness if he is
acquainted with.
Mr. MuNDT. Surely.
Mr. Stripling. First, I would like to go back to your statement,
Mr. Hiss, in which you referred to jouv friendship with Henry
Collins.
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. It was at Henry Collins' apartment in St. Matthews
Court in Washington, D. C, that Mr. Whittaker Chambers testified
that the members of this Conmiunist apparatus within the Government
met. Did you ever go to Mr. Collins' apartment in St. Matthews'
Court?
Mr. Hiss. I am not sure I ever went to any apartment he had in
St. Matthews Court. I have in the course of the years been to a number
of apartments and dwelling houses where Mr. -Collins resided and
lie has been to my house.
Mr. Stripling. At any time that you were at Mr. Collins* home, was
Mr. Lee Pressman present ?
Mr. Hiss. I couldn't be sure that he wasn't. He may well have
been.
Mr. Stripling. Was Mr. Nathan Witt present ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stru'Ling. Was Mr. Harold Ware present?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. I believe you testified you didn't know Victor Perlo.
Mr. Hiss. I don't believe I know Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. Was John Abt present ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Was Charles Kramer present?
Mr. Hiss. Again not to the best of my recollection. Certainly not
in recent years.
Mr. Stripling. We are not referring to recent years. We are re-
ferring back to the period 1934 through 1037.
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my recollection I do not recall the men
I have already testified about in answer to your questions being present.
652 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, did you testify earlier that you did or did
not know Mr. Ware?
Mr. Hiss. I hadn't been asked the question. I did know Mr. Ware
while I was in the Department of Agriculture. My recollection is
that he was an agricultural specialist and I think he had been a member
of an unofficial mission according to my recollection that went to
Russia in connection with studying large-scale wheat farming. My
recollection is he came into my offices in the Department of Agriculture,
as many callers did, on several occasions. I do remember hearing of
a wheat mission which was studying large-scale wheat farming with
combines and tractors and things of that sort, and I think I remember
Mr. Harold Ware in that connection.
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony in effect is that your acquaintance with
Mr. Ware w^as only casual in the course of your employment.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And not otherwise.
Mr. Hiss. And not otherwise.
Mr. Stripling. You were very closely associated with Mr. Pressman
at the time you were both with the AAA ; is that right ?
Mr. Hiss. W^e had the same status, that of assistant general counsel.
We were the two assistant general counsels, as I recall it.
Mr. Stktpling. Were certain members of the staff of AAA removed
by Jerome Frank ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall Mr. Pressman resigning from the
AAA?
Mr. Hiss. ^lay I ask you a question? Perhaps you are thinking
some of them w^ere removed by Secretary Wallace and not by Mr.
Frank. Mr. Frank was one of those removed.
Mr, Stripling. They were removed. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. I 'on't know the details. I believe they were asked to
resign. I don't think they had to be removed. I think the mere
request for their resignation was all that was necessary.
Mr. Rankin. Who requested their resignation ?
]Mr. Hiss. My understanding is it was the Secretary of Agriculture,
who was then Mr. Henry A. Wallace.
Mr. Rankin. What year was that?
Mr. Hiss. 1934, 1 would guess, and 1935, I am not absolutely sure.
Maybe Mr. Stripling knows the dates.
Mr. Stripling. Why did Secretary Wallace ask them to resign?
Mr. Hiss. I can only speak from hearsay and my recollection of
various events that occurred there with which I am personally familiar.
My own experience with that situation began when Mr. Chester Davis,
who was then the Administrator — he had succeeded Mr. George Peek —
of the AAA called me into his office. He was in a high state of per-
turbation and he said :
"Alger, did you approve this opinion about distribution of benefit
payments under the cotton contracts?"
i said, "Yes, Chester; I did."
He said, "How could you? It is a dishonest opinion."
And I said, "Chester, if you thiuk any legal opinion I have approved
is dishonest, I am no longer your lawyer, I resign ; I cannot serve any
client wlio does not have confidence in me."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 653
He immediately said, "Oh, I don't mean that," and that he had con-
fidence in me. I refused at that time to withdraw my resignation.
In the course of that day an announcement was made that Secretary
Wallace had asked for the resignation. My resignation was never
asked for. He asked for the resignation of certain members of the
staff of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. I think Mr.
Frank was one of them. I believe Mr. Gardner Jaclison was one of
them. I don't recall the details, but the three or fi,ur men whom I
knew— one of them was my chief, Mr. Frank, whom I knew very well —
and it was my understanding that it was not really over a question of
law because subsequently Mr. Chester Davis apologized for calling it a
dishonest opinion and said he did not question my integrity.
I think it was the culmination to a long period of disagreement on
substantive political issues between Mr. Frank and some of his staff
and Mr. Chester Davis, the Administrator.
Mr. Stripling. ]Mr. Hiss, I have a list of names here and I am
going to ask you if you are acquainted with them. The first is John
J. Abt.
Mr. Hiss. I am acquainted with Mr. Abt as I testified at the be-
ginning of my statement. I met INIr. Abt first in the Legal Division
of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. We were both em-
ployed in that office.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Solomon
Adler?
Mr. Hiss. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Norman Bursler, B-u-r-s-1-e-r?
Mr. Hiss. Would you spell that again ?
Mr. Stripling. Norman Bursler, B-u-r-s-1-e-r.
Mr. Hiss. No ; I don't think I have ever heard of him.
Mr. Stripling. Frank V. Coe, C-o-e ?
Mr. Hiss. I have known a Mr. Coe in Government service. Could
you identify him ? I don't remember the first name.
Mr. Stripling. In the Treasury Department, Division of Monetary
Research, on June 17. 1946, a position with the Monetary Fund.
Mr. Hiss. I know that Mr. Coe.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know Mr. Coe ?
Mr. Hiss. I have only known him officially while I was in the De-
partment of State. I have also known him since he has been with
the International Fund ; or is it the bank?
Mr. Stripling. International Fund.
Mr. Hiss. Since he has been with the International Monetary I und
because I have been interested in all phases of United Nations activities,
I do know Mr. Coe.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow Mr. Lauchlin Currie ?
Mr. Hiss. I know Lauchlin Currie very well and have a high regard
for him.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask, since you are qualifying your relationships,
do you have a high regard for Lee Pressman?
Mr. Hiss. I knew Pressman first at law school and I have seen very
little of him recently. I liked him and admired him as a law student,
and knew him and admired him as a fellow lawyer in the Agricultural
Adjustment Administration.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
654 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Glasser, G-1-a-s-s-e-r?
Mr. Hiss. I know Mr, Glasser. He was an official of the Treasury
when I knew him and I was in the State Department and knew him
officially, and I think only officially.
Mr. Stripling. Sonia S. Gold, G-o-l-d?
Mr. Hiss. I think not.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. William Gold or Mrs. Bela Gold?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. She was secretary to Harry Dexter White.
Mr. Hiss. I knew Mr. White and may have met Mrs. Gold in going
into his office if she was his secretary. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do yon know William J. Gold?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Jacob Golos ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; definitely not.
Mr. Stripling. Joseph B. Gregg — G-r-e-g-g?
Mr. Hiss. There was a Joe Gray in the State Department.
Mr. Stripling. Resigned from the Department of State April 1,.
1946.
Mr. Hiss. Was this the Joe Gray
Mr. Stripling. That is spelled G-r-e-g-g.
Mr. Hiss. I thought you meant G-r-a-y, excuse me. Excuse me for
dragging the name in.
Mr. Stripling. Michael Greenberg ?
Mr. Hiss. I did know a Michael Greenberg. He, according to the
best of my recollection, was an assistant to Mr, Carrie at the time I
knew him.
Mr. Stripling. Was he in the Department of State at any time?
Mr. Hiss. Not so far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. According to the Civil Service records, Michael
Greenberg was separated for reduction in force from the Department
of State June 15, 1916. He resided at '2700 Eighth Street South,
Arlington, Va. Do you know that Michael Greenberg?
Mr, Hiss, I never went to his house, so the address doesn't help me,
jSIr, Stripling, It is done for the purpose of identification.
Mv. Hiss. I did know a Michael Greenberg as a State Department
official. I remember quite well a yoinig assistant, I think, to Mr, Currie,
who was a specialist on the Far East,
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Maurice Halperin?
Mr. Hiss, I do not, to the best of my knoAvledge.
Mr, Stripling, Do you know an individual by the name of Julius
J, Joseph ?
Mr, Hiss, Not to the best of my knowledge,
Mr, Stripling, Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Hiss. I do, and I have already referred to Kramer as an official
of the Department of Agriculture in a different office. He was not a
lawyer, I knew him officially,
Mr, Stripling, When did you last see Charles Kramer?
Mr, Hiss, I couldn't be sure, I have probably seen him on the
street. He is a rather distinctive looking person. Do you know him?
Mr. Stripling. I know him.
Mr. Hiss. He has reddish hair, very distinctive. I think I recall
having seen him, though not to talk to, in Washington sometime
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 655
ill the last couple of years. I don't think I have seen him to talk
to since I left the Department of Agriculture.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual named Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of 1113^ knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Duncan C. Lee?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff — M-a-g-d-o-f-f ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Robert T. Miller ?
]Mr. Hiss. Would you identify him ? There was a Mr. Miller at the
Department of State whom I did know officially.
Mr. Stripling. Resigned from the Department of State on Decem-
ber 13, 1946.
Mr. Hiss. Was he an information officer? An information spe-
cialist ?
Mr. Stripling. I don't have that information.
Mr. Hiss. According to my recollection, there was a Mr. Miller in
the Department of State who was what was known as an information
officer, and I knew him officially in the Department of State, if that is
the same individual.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Willard Z. Park?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
i\Ir. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Hiss. I have already said I don't believe I know Mr.. Perlo.
I noticed his name in Mr. Chambers' testimony. May I say, Mr.
Stripling, that I have been in Washington about 14 or 15 years.
I have met casually a great many people. I am testifying to the best
of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. The committee wants to know whether or not you
know these people. We are not interested in whether or not you have
just met them.
Mildred Price?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Bernard's. Redmont — R-e-d-m-o-n-t?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. William W. Remington?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Allan — A-1-l-a-n — R. Rosenberg — R-o-s-e-n-
b-e-r-g?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Abraham B. Silverman — S-i-1-v-e-r-m-a-n?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know why Mr. Silvermaster would refuse
to answer the question when he was asked whether he knew Alger
Hiss, he replied, "I refuse to answer this question on the grounds
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-incrimi-
nating" ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly do not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor, T-a-y-1-o-r?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge. Can you identify him ?
Taylor is a very familiar name.
656 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Strtplincj. Mr. Taylor was with the Treasury Department,
resigned December 14, 1946, to accept a position with the International
Monetary Fund.
Mr. Hiss. I think I know that Mr. Taylor. Have you seen him ?
Do you know what he looks like?
Mr. Stripling. No; I don't.
Mr. Hiss. I think I did know him officially.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Helen B. Tenney, T-e-n-n-e-y ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you knovc William L. Ullman, U-1-l-m-a-n?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald N. Wheeler?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. /Stripling. Harry D. White ?
Mr. Hiss. I do know'Mr. Harry D. White.
Mr. Rankin. But you don't know Mr. Remington?
Mr. Hiss. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the c|uestions I have at this time, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. ]NIr. Hiss, you have gone into some detail concerning
your work and responsibilities in the Department of Agriculture. I
would like to ask you a few questions concerning your work and re-
sponsibilities while working for the Department of State.
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate in the Yalta Conference?
Mr. Hiss. I did, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you draft or participate in the drafting of parts
of the Yalta agreement?
Mr. Hiss. I think it is accurate and not an immodest statement to
say that I did to some extent, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate in those parts which gave Russia
three votes in the Assembly?
Mr. Hiss. I was present at the Conference and am familiar with
some of the facts involved in that particular arrangement.
Mr. MuNDT. You would say you did participate in the formation
of that ])art of the agi'eement ?
Mr. Hiss. I had nothing to do Avith the decision that these votes
be granted. I opposed them.
Mr. MuNDT. You opposed them?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate — I am glad to hear that
Mr. Rankin. Let's get that answ^er straight. You opposed the
Yalta agreement?
Mr. Hiss. I opposed the particular point that the chairman referred
to by which the United States agreed to sui)pftrt Soviet Russia's
application for votes in the Assembly and membership in the United
Nations Organization to Byelo Russia and the Ukraine. I did not
oppose the Yalta agreement as a whole— quite the contrary. I still
think the political agreement was a very valuable agreement for the
United States.
Mr. MuNDT. I congratulate you on your opposition to that particu-
lar section. Did you participate in the ]iortion of the Yalta agree-
ment which gave Russia control of the chief Manchurian railway?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 657
Mr. Hi!S8. That was not part of the political agreement. I knew
nothing of that until many months later. That was in the military
talks in which I did not participate.
Mr. MuNDT. As an employee in the Department of State, did you
have anything to do with the departmental policy which was pro-
claimed on December 15, 1945, before General Marshall went out to
Chma?
Mr. Hiss. No; I did not. I had been connected with far eastern
affairs, before, but about February 1944, I was assigned to United
Nations work and specialized entirely in that field thereafter.
Mr. MuNDT. Referring especially to that portion of the Secretary's
proclamation which said that we must have peace and unity with the
Communists in China.
Mr. Hiss. I was not consulted on that. It was not in my area of
activity at all.
Mr. Rankin. Wlio was Secretary of State at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. In 1945, 1 think Mr. Byrnes.
Mr. MuNDT. The Yalta agreement, which wrote out, according to
my information, quite well the text of the United Nations charter deal-
ing w^ith the veto provisions — did you participate in the drawing up
of those veto provisions?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection without consulting the actual records
is that the text of what is now article 27 of the Charter was drafted
in the Department of State in the early winter of 1944 before the Yalta
ConlereiKe, as^ part of tlie negotiations preceding that Confertnice, was
dispatched by the President of the United States to the Prime Minister
of Great Britain and to Marshal Stalin for their agreement and repre-
sented the proposal made by the United States at the Yalta Conference
and was accepted by the other two after some discussion. I did par-
ticipate in the Department of State in the drafting of the messages I
have referred to that President Roosevelt sent in, I think, December
1944 prior to the Yalta Conference.
Mr. MuNDT. Those were the messages which described the veto
provisions ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is they set out an actual suggested draft
and that the variations between that draft and the present language
of the Charter is immaterial.
Mr. MuNT. What I was trying to get to is whether you participated
in the creation of the draft.
Mv. Hiss. I did participate in the creation of the draft that was sent
by President Roosevelt to Churchill and Stalin, which was the draft
actually adopted at Yalta and actually adopted at San Francisco.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you lend your influence in the direction of having
the veto provision included in that draft ?
Mr. Hiss. I did. That was practically the unanimous position of
the American Government, I might add.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have a question, Mr. McDowell?
Mr. McDow^ELL. Mr. Hiss, do you feel you have had a free and fair
and proper hearing this morning?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. McDowell, I think I have been treated with great con-
sideration by this committee. I am not happy that I didn't have a
chance to meet with the committee privately before there was such a
80408 — i8 — —11
658 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
great public press display of what I consider completely unfounded
charges against me. Denials do not always catch up with charges.
Mr. McI)o\\t:ll. I am very familiar with that, but I think they will
in your case, Mr. Hiss, because you have the same radio facilities, the
same news-reel facilities, and the same press facilities as the man who
made the charges. You will appreciate that this committee has no
way of reading into a witness' mind what he is going to say. Some-
times we are greatly surprised, too, in reading over a list of people
whom we have reason to suspect are Communists or espionage agents,
there is brought in a name which many Americans, including members
of this committee, hold in high repute.
Mr. Hiss. I would rather not comment on that particular point. I
don't think I am in the best frame of mind to comment on that right
now.
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is probably correct. Mr. Nixon, do you
have further questions ?
Mr. Nixon. From your experience in the State Department, is it
your opinion that every effort should be made by the investigative
authorities of the Government and by the connnittees of Congress to
look into the alleged subversive activities of Communists in the United
States? -
Mr. Hiss. Was j^our question "every effort"? Every effort which
is compatible with the protection of the reputations of innocent per-
sons, I certainly do.
Mr. NixON. In other words, you feel then that there is definite
danger to the security of the United States from Communist under-
ground activities which requires investigation?
Mr. Hiss. I think it would be very unwise for the Government to
employ anyone in whose loyalty it did not have complete confidence,
and it should establish its judgment as carefully and reliably as
possible.
Mr. NixoN". For that reason since it is essential that the Government
have complete confidence in its employees that investigation — and I
am referring now to Communist activities because that is what both
Senate and House committees are interested in — the investigation of
Communist activities, having in mind the rights of individuals con-
cerned, as you have indicated, should proceed so that we can protect
the national security from the activities of American Communists who
will be serving the interests of a foreign government.
Mr. Hiss. I do. I think some distinction should be made with re-
spect to so-called sensitive positions and other types of positions, but I
am not an expert on that type of personnel problem. It is just my
offhand impression.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there any positions in Government where you feel
that Communists should be employed ?
Mr. Hiss. As I say, I am not an expert on that question. Whether
someone who is sweeping the halls or a charwoman — I really don't
know.
Mr. MuNDT. If you were in charge
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't make the same kind of investigation, I would
say that.
Mr. MuNDT. If you were in charge of an executive agency would you
employ a Communist as a charwoman if you knew it ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 659
Mr. Hiss. That is what President Roosevelt used to call an "iffy"
question.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you want to give an "iffy" answer?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think I shall ever have that decision to face. I
think, trying to answer your question very responsibly, I would not.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. I have two questions. I believe you said you were
recommended for your present position by Mr. John Foster Dulles.
That is correct, isn't it ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Now, Mr. Muiidt questioned you about your attitude
on the veto and the United Nations Charter.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rankin. And you say you favored it ?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. Rankin. Now, whose interest did you have at heart and in mind
at the time, the interest of the United States or the interest of a foreign
power ?
Mr. Hiss. The interest of the United States and of the United Na-
tions Organization. I think without the veto there would have been
no United Nations Organization. I think it was highly desirable to
the interest of the United States that there be such an organization in
which the United States participated.
Mr. Rankin. You think that veto is in the interest of the United
States?
Mr. Hiss. I think, Mr, Rankin, that various changes and modifica-
tions could helpfully and desirably be made in the veto provision. I
think on the question of enforcement in particular, on the calling out
of contingents of armed forces supplied by member states, that in the
present state of the world that each of the major powers, including
particularly the United States, must reserve its own judgment as to
whether it thinks its own troops should move in a given case.
Mr. Rankin. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair has one additional question. I think counsel
neglected to ask you, Mr. Hiss.
During the time you were employed with the State Department,
before or since, did you ever see or meet Carl Alclo Marzani ? ,
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wishes to express the appreciation of the
committee for your very cooperative attitude, for your forthright
statements, and for the fact that you were first among those whose'
names were mentioned by various witnesses to communicate with us
asking for an opportunity to deny the charges.
Mr. Rankin. And another thing. I want to congratulate the wit-
ness that he didn'tt refuse to answer the questions on the ground that
it might incriminate him, and he didn't bring a lawyer here to tell him
what to say.
Mr. MuNDT. The committee will meet in executive session at 3
o'clock this afternoon.
("Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
HEARINGS RECtARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SATURDAY, AUGUST 7, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
New York, N. Y.
executive session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 30 o'clock in room
101, Federal Courthouse, 2 Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon.
Richard M. Nixon presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Richard M. Nixon,
John McDowell, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, Donald P. Appell, and C. E. McKillips, investiga-
tore, and Benjamin Mandel, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that this is an executive session
of a subcommittee appointed by the acting chairman of the Un-
American Activities Committee, Karl Mundt, on August 5.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show those
present.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and
Mr. Nixon are present.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OP WHITTAKER CHAMBERS
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you are aware of the fact that Mr.
Alger Hiss appeared before this committee, before the Un-American
Activities Committee, in public session and swore that the testimony
which had been given by you under oath before this committee was
false. The committee is now interested in questioning you further
concerning your alleged acquaintanceship with Mr. Alger Hiss so
that we can determine what course of action should be followed in
this matter in the future.
Mr. Hiss in his testimony was asked on several occasions whether
or not he had ever known or knew a man by the name of Whittaker
Chambers. In each instance he categorically said "No."
At what period did you know Mr. Hiss ? What time ?
2 Testimony taken in executive session and released during public hearing, August 25,
661
662 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I knew Mr. Hiss, roughly, between the years 1935
to 1937.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know him as Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you happen to see Mr. Hiss' pictures in the news-
papers as a result of these recent hearings ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Was that the man you knew as Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; that is the man.
Mr. Nixon. You are certain of that ?
Mr. Chambers. I am completely certain.
Mr, Nixon. During the time that you knew Mr. Hiss, did he know
you as Whittaker Chambers?
Mr- Chambers. No, he did not.
Mr. Nixon. By what name did he know you?
Mr. Chambers. He knew me by the party name of Carl,
Mr. Nixon, Dicl he ever question the fact that he did not know your
last name?
Mr. Chambers. Not to me.
Mr. Nixon. Why not?
Mr, Chambers. Because in the underground Communist Party the
principle of organization is that functionaries and heads of the
group, in other words, shall not be known by their right names but
by pseudonyms or party names.
Mr. NixoN. Were you a party functionary?
Mr. Chambers. I was a functionary,
Mr. NixoN. This entire group with which you worked in Washing-
ton did not know you by your real name?
Mr. Chambers. No member of that group knew me by my real name.
Mr, NixON. All knew you as Carl?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon, No member of that group ever inquired of you as to
vour real name?
Mr, Chambers. To have questioned me would have been a breach of
party discipline, Communist Party discipline.
Mr. Nixon. I understood you to say that Mr. Hiss was a member
of the party.
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr, NixoN. How do you know that ?
Mr. Chambers, I was told by Mr, Peters,
Mr. Nixon. You were told that by Mr. Peters ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes,
Mr. Nixon. On what facts did Mr. Peters give you ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Peters was the head of the entire underground,
as far as I knoAv.
Mr. Nixon. The entire underground of the Commmiist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. Of the Communist Party in the United States,
Mr. Nixon. Do you have any other evidence, any factual evidence,
to bear out your claim that Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. Nothing beyond the fact that he submitted himself
for the 2 or 3 years that 1 knew him as a dedicated and disciplined
Communist,
Mr, Nixon, Did you obtain his party dues from him ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 663
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I did.
Mr. Nixon. Over what period of time?
Mr. Chambers. Two or three years, as long as I knew him.
Mr. Nixox. Party dues from him and his wife ?
Mr. Chambers. I assume his wife's dues were there ; I understood
it to be.
Mr. Nixox. You understood it to be?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss would simply give me an envelope con-
taining party dues which I transferred to Peters. I didn't handle
the money.
Mr. Nixon. How often 'i
Mr. Chambers. Once a month.
Mr. Nixon. What did he say?
Mr. Chambers. That Avas one point it wasn't necessary to say any-
thing. At first he said, "Here are my dues."
Mr. Nixon. And once a month over a period of 2 years, approxi-
mately, he gave you an envelope which contained the dues?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. What did you do with that envelope ?
Mr. Chambers. I gave it to Peters.
Mr. Nixon. In New York ?
Mr. Chambers. Or Washington.
Mr. Nixon. This envelope contained dues of Hiss and other mem-
bers of the group ?
Mr. Chambers. Only Hiss.
INIr. Nixon. You collected dues from the other members of the group
individually ?
Mr. Chambers. All dues were collected individually.
Mr. Nixon. I see. So this money could not have been money from
anybody but Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Only from Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. Couldn't have been giving you dues for his wife and not
for himself ?
Mr. Chambers. I suppose it is possible, but that was certainly not
the understanding.
Mr. Nixon. The understanding was it was his dues?
Mr. Chambers. The understanding was it was his dues. Not only
that, but he was rather pious about paying his dues promptly.
Mr. Nixon. Is there any other circumstance which would substan-
tiate your allegation that he was a member of the party ? You have
indicated he paid dues, you indicated that Mr. Peters, the head of the
Communist underground, informed you he was a member of the
party before you met him the first time.
Mr. Chambers. I must also interpolate there that all Communists in
the group in which I originally knew him accepted him as a member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Referred to him as a member of the party?
Mr. Chambers. That doesn't come up in conversation, but this was
a Communist group.
Mr. Nixon. Could this have possibly been an intellectual study
group ?
Mr. Chambers. It was in nowise an intellectual study group. Its
primary function was not that of an intellectual study group. I cer-
tainly supplied some of that intellectual study business, which was
664 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
part of my function, but its primary function was to infiltrate the
Government in the interest of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. At that time, incidentally, Mr. Hiss and the other mem-
bers of this group who were Government employees did not have party
cards ?
Mr. Chambers. No members of that group to my knowledge ever
had party cards, nor do I think members of any such group have party
cards.
Mr. Nixoisr. The reason is
Mr. Chambers. The reason is security, concealment.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, people who are in the Communist un-
derground are in fact instructed to deny the fact that they are mem-
bers of the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I was told by Peters that party registration was
kept in Moscow and in some secret file in the United States.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss have any children?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss had no children of his own.
Mr. Nixon. Were there any children living in his home?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss had a son.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know the son's name?
Mr. Chambers. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. Nixon. Approximately how old was he at the time you knew
him ?
Mr. Chambers. It seems to me he was about 10 years old.
Mr. Nixon. What did you call him ?
Mr. Chambers. Timmie.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss call him Timmie also ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. Nixon. Did he have any other nickname?
Mr. Chambers. Not that I recall. He is the son, to the best of my
knowledge, of Thayer Hobson, who I think is a member of the pub-
lishing house of William Morrow here in New York.
Mr. Nixon. What name did Mrs. Hiss use in addressing Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Usually "Hilly."
Mr. Nixon. "Hilly"?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Quite often ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. In your presence ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Not "Alger"?
Mr. Chambers. Not "Alger."
Mr. Nixon. What nickname, if any. did Mr. Hiss use in addressing
his wife?
Mr. Chambers. More often "Dilly" and sometimes "Pross." Her
name was Priscilla. They were commonly referred to as "Plilly" and
"Dilly."
Mr. Nixon. They were commonly referred to as "Hilly" and Dilly"?
Mr. Chambers. By other members of the group.
Mr. Nixon. You don't mean to indicate that was simply the nick-
names used by t'ac Communist group?
Mr. Cha]mi5::us. 'I h.s was a family matter.
Mr. Nixon. In (^ther words, other friends and acquaintances of theirs
would possibly have used these names ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 665
Did you ever spend any time in Hiss' home?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you stay overnight?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I stayed overnight for a number of days.
Mr. Nixon. You mean from time to time ?
Mr. Chambers. From time to time.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever stay longer than 1 day?
]\Ir. Chambers. I have stayed there as long as a week.
Mr. Nixon. A week one time. What would you be doing during
that time ?
Mr. Chambers. Most of the time reading.
Mr. Nixon. What arrangements was made for taking care of your
lodging at that time ? Were you there as a guest ?
Mr. Chambers. I made that a kind of informal headquarters.
Mr. Nixon. I understand that, but what was the financial arrange-
ment ?
Mr. Chambers. There was no financial arrangement.
Mr. Nixon. You were a guest ?
Mr. Chambers. Part of the Communist pattern.
Mr. Nixon, Did the Hisses have a cook ? Do you recall a maid ?
Mr. Chambers. As nearly as I can remember, they had a maid who
came in to clean, and a cook who came in to cook. I can't remembei
they had a maid there all the time or not. It seems to me in one or
two of the houses they did.
In one of the houses they had a rather elderly Negro maid whom
Mr. Hiss used to drive home in the evening.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall the names of the maids ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't.
Mr. NixoN. Did the Hisses have any pets ?
Mr. Chambers. They had, I believe, a cocker spaniel. I have a bad
memory for dogs, but as nearly as I can remember it was a cocker
spaniel.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember the dog's name ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I remember they used to take it up to some
kennel. I think out Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Nixon. They took it to board it there ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. They made one or two vacation trips to the
Eastern Shore of Maryland.
Mr. Nixon. Thej' made some vacation trips to the Eastern Shore
of Maryland ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, and at those times the dog was kept at the
kennel.
Mr. Nixon. You state the Hisses had several different houses when
you knew them ? Could you describe any one of those houses to us ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so. It seems to me when I first knew him
he was living on 28th Street in an apartment house. There were two
almost identical apartment houses. It seems to me that is a dead-end
street and this was right at the dead end and certainly it is on the
right-hand side as you go up.
It also seems to me that apartment was on the top floor. Now, what
was it like inside, the furniture ? I can't remember.
Mr. Mandel. What was Mr. Hiss' library devoted to ?
Mr. Chambers. Very nondescript, as I recall.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall what floor the apartment was on ?
666 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I think it was on the top floor.
Mr. Nixon. The fourth?
Mr. Chambers. It was a walk-up. I think the fourth.
Mr. Nixon. It could have been the third, of course ?
Mr. Chambers. It might have been.
Mr. Nixon. But you think it was the top, as well as you can recall?
Mr. Chambers. I think it was the top.
Mr. Nixon. Understand, I am not trying to hold you to absolute
accuracy.
Mr. Chambers. I am trying to recall.
Mr. Nixon. Was there any special dish they served ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I think you get here into something else. Hiss
is a man of great simplicity and a great gentleness and sweetness of
character, and they lived with extreme simplicity. I had the impres-
sion that the furniture in that house was kind of pulled together from
here or there, maybe got it from their mother or something like that,
nothing lavish about it whatsoever, quite simple.
Their food was in the same pattern and they cared nothing about
food. It was'not a primary interest in their lives.
Mr. Mandel. Did Mr. Hiss have any hobbies ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; he did. They both had the same hobby —
amateur ornithologists, bird observers. They used to get up early in
the morning and go to Glen Echo, out the canal, to observe birds.
I recall once they saw, to their great excitement, a prothonotary
warbler.
Mr. McDowell. A very rare specimen ?
Mr. Chambers. I never saw one. I am also fond of birds.
Mr. Nixon. Did they have a car ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; they did. When I first knew them they had
a car. Again I am reasonably sure — I am almost certain — it was a
Ford and that it was a roadster. It was black and it was very dilapi-
dated. There is no question about that.
I remember very clearly that it had hand windshield wipers. I
remember that because I drove it one rainy day and had to work those
windshield wipers by hand.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any other car?
Mr. Chambers. It seems to me in 1936, probably, he got a new
Plymouth.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall its type ? •
Mr. Chambers. It was a sedan, a two-seated car.
Mr. Mandel. What did he do with the old car ?
Mr. Chambers. The Communist Party had in Washington a service
station — that is, the man in charge or owner of this station was a Com-
munist— or it may have been a car lot.
Mr. Nixon. But the owner was a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. The owner was a Communist. I never knew who
this was or where it was. It was against all the rules of underground
organization for Hiss to do anything with his old car but trade it in,
and I think this investigation has proved how right the Communists
are in such matters, but Hiss insisted that he wanted that car turned
over to the open p.irtv so it could be of use to some poor organizer in
the West or somewhere.
Much against my better judgment and much against Peters' better
judgment, he finally got us to permit him to do this thing. Peters
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 667
knew where this lot was and he either took Hiss there, or he gave Hiss
the address and Hiss went there, and to the best of my recollection
of his description of that happening, he left the car there and simply
went away and the man in charge of the station took care of the rest
of it for iiim. I should think the records of that transfer would be
traceable.
Mr. Nixon. Where was that?
Mr. Chambers. In Washington, D. C, I believe; certainly some-
where in the District.
Mr. Nixon. You don't know^ where ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; never asked.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any other cars besides those two?
Mr. Chambers. No, I think he had the Plymouth when I broke
with the whole business.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall any other hobbies he had ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think he had any other hobbies.
Mr. Nixon. Did they have a piano ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't believe so. I am reasonably sure they
did not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any particular pieces of furniture that
they had ?
Mv. Chambers. The only thing I recall was a small leather cigarette
box, leather-covered cigarette box, wdth gold tooling on it. It seems
to me that box was red leather.
Mr. Nixon. Red leather cigarette box with gold tooling?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any particular pieces of bedroom furni-
ture they had ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall possibly what the silver pattern w^as, if
any? Was it sterling ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall what kind of chinaware they used ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I have been thinking over these things and
none of that stands out.
Mr. Nixon. What kind of cocktail glasses did they have?
Mr. Chambers. We never drank cocktails.
Mr. NixON. Did they drink ?
Mr. Chambers. They did not drink. They didn't drink with me.
For one thing, I was strictly forbidden by the Communist Party to
taste liquor at any time.
Mr. Nixon. And you didn't drink?
Mr. Chambers. I never drank.
Mr. Nixon. As far as you know, they never drank, at least with you ?
Mr. Chambers. He gave cocktail parties in Government service.
Mr. Nixon. Could you describe Mr. Hiss' physical appearance
for us ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss, I should think, is about 5 feet 8 or 9,
slender. His eyes are wide apart and blue or gray,
Mr. Nixon. Blue or gray ?
Mr. Chambers. I think they change.
Mr. Nixon. Sort of a blue-gray ?
Mr. Chambers. Blueish gray, you could say. In his walk, if you
-watch him from behind, there is a slight mince sometime.
668 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. A slight mince ?
Mr. Chambers. Mince. Anybody could observe.
Mr. Nixon. Does Mrs. Hiss have any physical characteristics?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss is a short, highly nervous, little woman.
I don't, as a matter of fact, recall the color of her eyes, but she has a
habit of blushing red when she is excited or angry, fiery red.
Mr. Mandel. a picture of Hiss shows his hand cupped to his ear.
Mr. ChamberIs. He is deaf in one ear.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Hiss is deaf in one ear?
Mr. Hebert. Wliich ear ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know. My voice is pitched very low and
it is difficult for me to talk and make myself understood.
Mr. Nixon. Did he wear glasses at the time ?
Mr. Chambers. I think he wore glasses only for reading.
Mr. Nixon. Did he tell you how he became deaf in one ear ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall that he did. The only thing I re-
member he told me was as a small boy he used to take a little wagon —
he was a Baltimore boy — and walk up to Druid Hill Park, which was
up that time way beyond the civilized center of the city, and fill up
bottles with spring water and bring them back and sell it.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember any phj^sical characteristics of the
boy?
Mr. Chambers. Timmie?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Timmie was a puny little boy, also rather nervous.
Mr. Nixon. This is Mrs. Hiss' son ?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss' son by Thayer Hobson, who I think is
one of the Hobson cousins, a cousin of Thornton Wilder. It is possi-
ble I could be mistaken about that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall anything else about the boy? Do you
recall where he went to school ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I do. I don't know the name of the school
he was attending then, but they told me that Thayer Hobson was pay-
ing for his son's education, but they were diverting a large part of
that money to the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Hiss told you that ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Did he say how much he was paying ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't know how much he was paying.
Mr. Nixon. Did he name the Communist Party as the recipient ?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. He might not have said simply "the party"? Could it
have been the Democratic Party or Socialist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Hobson was paying for the boy's education ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; and they took him out of a more expensive
school and put him in a less expensive school expressly for that pur-
pose. That is my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. When would that have occurred ?
Mr. Chambers. Probably about 1936.
Mr. Nixon. Did they change in the middle of the year ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall. He was a slightly effeminate child.
I think there was some worry about him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember anything about his hands ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGL 669
Mr. Chambers. Wliose?
Mr. Stripling. Alger Hiss'.
Mr. Chambers. He had rather long delicate fingers. I don't remem-
ber anything special.
Mr. Mandel. How is it he never wrote anything publicly ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, he came into the underground like so many
Communists did — this was a new stage in the history of American
Communists.
Mr. Mandel. He was never in the open Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. He was never in the open Communist Party, came
in as an underground Communist.
Mr. Hebert. Did he have any other brothers or sisters besides
Donald'^
Mr. Chambers. He had one sister, I believe, living with her mother
in Baltimore.
Mr. Hebert. Did he ever talk about her ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; once or twice, and mentioned his mother. He
once drove me past their house, which as I recall, was on or near
Tiinden Street.
Mr. Hebert. What did the sister do ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think she did anything besides live with
her mother. Whether he had any more than that I don't know.
Mr. Hebert. Yon know he referred to at least one sister?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. Hebert. Do you recall her name ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. And you don't recall what the sister did ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think she did anything.
Mr. Hebert. Did it ever come up in conversation that the sister
was interested in athletics ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Was he interested in athletics ?
Mr. Chambers. I think he played tennis, but I am not certain.
Mr. Hebert. With the sister now — it is very important — you don't
recall the sister?
Mr. Chambers. We merely brushed that subject.
Mr. Nixon. You never met the sister ?
Mr. Chambers. No; nor never met the mother. My impression
was his relations with his mother were affectionate but not too happy.
She was, perhaps, domineering. I simply pulled this out of the air
in the conversation.
Mr. Stripling. Did he go to church ?
Mr. Chambers. He was forbidden to go to church.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether he was a member of a church ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know if his wife was a member of a church ?
Mr. Chambers. She came from a Quaker family. Her maiden name
was Priscilla Fansler before she was married. She came from the
Great Valley near Paoli, Pa.
Mr. Nixon. Did she tell you anything about her family ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; but she once showed me while we were driving
beyond Paoli the road down which their farm lay.
Mr. Nixon. You drove with them ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
670 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
•
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever go on a trip with them other than by
automobile?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Nixon. Did you stay overnight on any of these trips?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Did she ever refer to her first husband ?
Mr. Chambers. I hope he will never hear this. She referred to him
almost with hatred.
Mr. Hebert. What did she call him, what name?
Mr. Chambers. Probably Thayer.
Mr. Nixon, You don't recall ?
Mr. Chamber's. No.
Mr. Nixon. When did you meet Donald Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Probably within the same week in which I met
Alger Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever stay in Donald Hiss' home?
Mr. Chambers. No. my relation with Donald Hiss was much less
close. I can make that point now, if you will permit. My relation-
ship with Alger Hiss quickly transcended our formal relationship.
We became close friends.
Mr, Nixon. Donald Hiss — what relation did you have with him?
Mr. Chambers. A purely formal one.
Mr. Nixon. He knew you as Carl ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you collect dues from him ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon, Did you meet his wife ?
Mr. Chambers. I think I met her once, not very often.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you collect the dues from him. at his home?
Mr. Chambers. Probably in Alger's house. He frequently came
there.
Mr. Nixon. He came there to see you ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall anything significant about Donald Hiss,
as to personal characteristics, hobbies?
Mr. CiiAiMBERS. No. Something else is involved there, too. Donald
Hiss was married, I think, to a daughter of Mr. Cotton, who is in the
State Department, She was not a Communist, and everybody was
worried about her.
Mr. Nixon, (netting back to Alger Hiss for the moment, do you
recall any pictures on the wall that they might have owned at the
time?
Mr. Chajibers. No; I am afraid I don't.
Mr. Nixon. Donald Hiss — do you know any other characteristics
about him, can you recall any?
Mr. Chaimbers. Except I can give you the general impression. He
was much less intelligent than Alger. Much less sensitive than his
brother. I had the impression he was interested in the social climb
and the Communist Party was interested in having him climb. At
one point I believe he was fairly friendly with James Roosevelt.
Mr. Nixon. Did you have any conversations with him you can recall
that were out of the ordinary ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; one I think I can recall. He was working in
the Labor Department, I believe in the Immigration Section, and it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 671
■was the plan of the Communist Party to have him go to California,
get himself sent b}^ the Government to California, to work in the
Bridges case.
At that moment he had an opportunity to go into the State Depart-
ment as, I think, legal adviser to the Philippine Section, which had
]ust been set up.
It was the opinion of the partj^ that he should do that and not the
Bridges matter. It was his opinion that he should continue in the
Bridges matter and there was a fairly sharp exchange, but he sub-
mitted to discipline and went to the State Department.
Mr. Nixon. Did you make an affidavit concerning Mr. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. I made a signed statement. I should think it was
about 1945. Before that I had reported these facts at least 2 years
before to the FBI and 9 years ago to Mr. Berle and mentioned Hiss'
name.
Mr. Nixon. Nine years ago, are you certain that you did mention
Hiss' name to Berle '.
Mr. Chambers. I certainly mentioned Hiss' name to Berle, I was
there with Berle precise!}' because — may we go off the record?
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Nixon. Have you seen Hiss since 1938?
Mr. Chambers._ No ; since the time I went to his house and tried to
break him away, I have never seen him since.
Mr. Nixox. AYould you be willing to submit to a lie detector test on
this testimony '.
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; if necessary.
Mr. Nixon. You have that much confidence?
Mr. Chambers. I am telling the truth.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Mr. Hebert. I am interested in the houses he lived in. You said
several houses. How many houses? Start from the beginning.
Mr. Chambers. As well as I can remember, when I first knew him
he was living on Twenty-eighth Street and when I went to see Mr.
Berle it struck me as strange, because Mr. Berle was living in Stim-
son's house on Woodley Road near Twenty-eighth Street. From there
I am not absolutely certain the order of the houses, but it seems to me
he moved to a house in Georgetown — that I know: he moved to a
house in Georgetown — but it seems it was on the corner of P Street,
but again I can't be absolutely certain of the streets.
Mr. Hebert. It was on a corner ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; and as I recall, you had to go up steps to get
to it.
Mr. Mandel. How many rooms were there in that house?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know offhand, but I have the impression it
was a three-story house. I also think it had a kind of a porch in back
where people sat.
Then if I have got the order of the houses right, he moved to a
house on an up-and-down street, a street that would cross tlie lettered
streets, probably just around the corner from the other house and
very near to his brother Donald.
Mr. Hebert. Still in Georgetown?
Mr. Chambers. Still in Georgetown. I have forgotten the reason
lor his moving. That was a smaller house and, as I recall, the dining
i
672 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
room was below the level of the ground, one of those basement dining
looms ; that it had a small yard in back.
I think he was there when I broke with the Communist Party.
Mr. Hebert. Three houses ?
Mr. Chambers. But I went to see him in the house he later moved
to, which was on the other side of Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Hebert. Three houses in Georgetown ?
Mr. Chambers. One on Twenty-eighth Street. |
Mr. Hebert. The last time you saw him when you attempted to *
persuade him to break away from the party
Mr. Chambers. That was beyond Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ever see their bedroom ; the furniture ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; but I don't remember the furniture.
Mr. Hebert. Did they have twin beds or single beds ?
Mr. Chambers. I am almost certain they did not have twin beds.
Mr. Hebert. In any of the four houses ?
Mr. Chambers. I can't be sure about the last one, but I am reason-
ably sure they did not have twin beds before that.
Mr. Hebert. This little boy, Timmie — can you recall the name of
the school that he went to ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. But you do recall that he changed schools ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; as nearly as I can remember, they told me they
had shifted him from one school to another because there was a saving
and they could contribute it to the party.
Mr. Hebert. What year ?
Mr. Chambers. Probably 1936.
Mr. Hebert. Or 1937, but probably '36?
Mr. Chambers. It is possible.
Mr. Hebert. We can check the year.
Mr. Chambers. The school was somewhere in Georgetown. He
came back and forth every day.
Mr. Nixon. Is there anything further? If not, thank you very
much, Mr. Chambers.
The hearing is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 1 : 10 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the
caucus room. Old House Office Building, Hon. Richard M. Nixon
presidino;.
Committee members present : Representatives Richard M, Nixon
(presiding), John McDowell, and F. E'dward Hebert.
Also present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas (chairman of the
full committee) and Karl E. Mundt.
Staff members present : Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator ;
Louis J. Russell and AVilliam A. Wheeler, investigators; and A. S.
Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. The hearing will come to order.
This is a meeting of a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities appointed by the acting chairman, Karl E. Mundt, on
August 5. The record will show that the following members of the
subcommittee are present. Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness?
Mr. Stripling. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Forer. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment.
Mr. Koral, you are here in response to a subpena which was served
upon you on August 6 in New York City, directing you to appear
before a subcommittee in the Federal Building in New York City at
7 p. m., on August 6, the said subcommittee being composed of Mr.
Nixon of California, the chairman, Mr. McDowell of Pennsylvania,
and Mr. Hebert of Louisiana.
You api^earecl at the Federal Building in response to that subpena,
did you not ?
Mr. Koral. I did, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At the conclusion of your testimony you were di-
rected to appear before the subcommittee at 10 : 30 a. m., this morning,
here in the caucus room. Is that correct?
Mr. Koral. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I believe the subpena directed you to appear at room
226, but the hearing has been removed to this room. You are here in
response to that subpena ?
Mr. Koral. I am here in response to that subpena. I was supposed
to appear in room 13.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, do you have counsel with you ?
80408—48 12 673
674 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, KoRAL. No, sir ; I haven't.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, if the witness is going to testify to some-
thing, I want him sworn at this time.
Raise your right hand, Mr. Koral.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. KoRAL. I do, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER KORAL
Mr. Stripling. Do you have counsel with you, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. KoRAL. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Forer, do you have a statement you would like
to make ?
Mr. FoRER. My name is Joseph Forer. I am an attorney. I do
not represent Mr. Koral except for a very limited purpose, which I
shall now explain. This morning, at home, at about 8 : 40 or so, I
received a telephone call from Boston from Mr. Leo Praeger, who is
counsel for Mr. Koral, with Avhom I happen to be acquainted. Mr.
Praeger told me over the phone that he was coming down from New
York to be counsel for Mr. Koral at this hearing, but, unfortunately,
he had taken the wrong plane and ended up in Boston instead of in
Washington. He called me to ask if I would get in touch with the
committee, explain that he had caught the wrong plane, and to inform
the committee that he was getting a plane from Boston to Washinglon
which would get him here at about 12 : 80, and asked me if I would
ask the committee if thej^ could postpone Mr. Koral's appearance until
early this afternoon, when Mr. Praeger would get here.
I telephoned Mr. Stripling and conveyed that information to him,
and Mr. Stripling suggested that I appear before you at this time to
convey Mr. Praeger 's message.
Mr. Nixon. Do I understand, Mr. Forer, that Mr. Praeger will be
here in Washington at 12 : 30 this afternoon?
Mr. Forer. Yes ; I understand that. He told me the plane he had
gotten space on was due to arrive at about that time.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Koral, do I understand you want Mr. Praeger to
represent you in these proceedings ?
Mr. KoRAL. I do, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you now direct the
witness to appear at 2 o'clock and to appear at that time before the
full committee.
Mr. Hebkrt. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt before you rule on
Mr. Sti'ipling's request ? I think the record should show that in New
York at the time this witness was instructed to appear here, his at-
torney at that time tried to get a delay and was refused by the com-
mittee. I am perfectly willing to let him come here at 2 o'clock —
that is all I'ight with me — but as I recall, in New York, he wanted
just a few hours' delay, and to accomplish the same purpose that is
being accomplished here now.
j\[r. NixoN. Mr. Koral, you are here, as you understand, in answer
to the subpena. You are directed to appear in answer to that subpena.
lioro at 2 p. m. this afternoon Avitli your attorney.
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir. May I make a remark, please ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE ' 675
Mr. KoRAL. I believe, if m,y memoi\y serves me cori-ectly, that my
attorney, Mr. Leo Praeger. asked for a delay of a couple of days, not
for a couple of hours.
Mr. McDowell. He asked for both ; a couple of days and a couple
of llOUl'S.
Mr. KoRAL, That may be so. I recall he spoke of a number of days.
Mr. Hebert. a day, and then when we insisted on his being here
this morning, he asked coUldn\ it be the afternoon. It is perfectly all
right. I just wanted to make the observation, Mr. Chairman, just to
keep the record straight. I am particularly interested in the fact that
the witness has such an active memory that he can remember things
in detail.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Koral, I shall direct you now, when j'ou return at
2 o'clock, that you shall appear at that time before the full committee
which will be sitting in this room at 2 o'clock. You understand the
directions?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes.
Mr. Xixox. The witness may step down.
Mr. Stripling, is there another witness to be heard at this time before
the subconnnittee?
Mr. Stkiplixg. Mr. Victor Perlo. Mr. Perlo wasn't directed to
uppear until 11 o'clock but it is 5 minutes to 11 now.
Mr. Xixox. In view of the fact that Mr. Perlo is not here and was
not directed to appear until 11 o'clock, the subcommittee will recess
until 11 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 10:53 a. m.. a recess Avas taken until 11 a. m., at
which time the following occuiTed :)
Mr. Nixox. The meeting of the subcommittee will come to order.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the next witness.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr! Victor Perlo.
Do you have counsel with you, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Will counsel identify himself?
Mr. GoLLOBix. Ira Gollobin.
Mr. Striplixg. And your business address?
Mr. GoLLOBix. 1441 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Perlo. you are here this morning in response
to a subpena which was served upon you on August 6, by Donald T.
Appell. in New York City, calling for your appearance in room 108,
Federal Building, New York City, on August 7, at 10:30 a. m. ; is
that correct ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. You were directed at the conclusion of your testi-
mony on t4iat date to appear before the subcommittee headed by Mr.
Nixon, of California, the chaiinian; Mr. McDowell, of Pennsylvania;
and iMr. Hebert, of Louisiana. They directed j'ou to appear before
this suljcommittee in Washington in room '22C) at 11 a. m. You are
here in response to that direction from the authorit}' of the subpena?
Mr. Perlo. That is correct.
iVIr. Nixox. Mr. Perlo, I now direct that you appear before the full
Connnittee on Un-American Activities at this time.
The meeting of the subcommittee will adjourn, and we will now go
into a full committee meeting.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 10 a. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
i
HEARINGS REGAEDINCt COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 11 : 10 a. m., in the caucus
room. Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chair-
man) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, J.
Hardin Peterson, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators ; and A. S. Poore,
editor,~ for the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The record will
show that those present are Mr. Nixon, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Mundt,
Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas. A quorum is present.
Mr. Perlo, will you please rise and be sworn ?
Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here before this
committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Perlo. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down. Mr, Stripling, you take the witness.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOH PEELO (ACCOMPANIED BY IRA GOLLOBIN,
COUNSEL EOE THE WITNESS)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Public Law 601 of the Seventy-ninth
Congress, second session, and House Resolution 5 of the Eightieth
Congress provides the authority for the Committee on Un-American
Activities, United States House of Representatives. Public Law 601
states in part :
Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommittee is au-
thorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii)
the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
Pursuant to this mandate the committee has been conducting an
investigation for the past several months into alleged Communist in-
677
678 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
filtration of Communist agents into the Federal Government, and the
operation within the Government of certain persons who were collect-
ing information to be turned over to a foreign government.
The hearing this morning is for the purpose of pursuing this inves-
tigation. Victor Perlo, a former employee of the Government, who
was subpenaed to appear before the Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities today, is before the committee this morning in connection with
the above-mentioned inquiry. All questions propounded to Mr. Perlo
will be pertinent to the inquiry and he shall be required to answer
them.
Mr. Perlo, will you please state your full name?
Mr. Perlo. Mr. Chairman, before going into the questions I wish
to announce that I have a statement to read to the committee and to
present as testimony at this hearing. I wonder if I may be permitted
to.
Mr. Stripling. We will be glad to take the statement under consid-
eration at the proper time, Mr. Perlo. We would like to have you
identify yourself and I would also like to get your employment back-
ground.
Will you please state your full name?
Mr. Perlo. Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address?
Mr. Perlo. 39 Park Avenue.
Mr. Stripling. Is that your business address?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. What is your home address?
Mr. Perlo. I gave the committee my home address in executive ses-
sion and I would prefer to leave it out of the public hearing if it
doesn't make any material difference.
Mr. Stripling. That is agreeable with me.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Perlo. I am an economist,
Mr. Stripling. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Perlo. By the Progressive Party.
Mr. Stripling. What is the address of the Progressive Party?
Mr. Perlo. 39 Park Avenue, New York, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Perlo. I was born in the county of Queens, New York State,
May 15, 1912.
Mr. Stripling. Where were your parents born ?
Mr. Perlo. My parents were born in towns in what is now the coun-
try of Poland. I wish to state in further development of that question
that both of my parents came here at a very early age, that they are
honored and respected American citizens, that my father has been a
practicing attorney for 43 years and was a member of the Selective
Service Board during World War II for 5 years.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, would you now detail for the committee
in chronological order your employment in the Federal Government?
Mr. Perlo. In 1933 t went to work for the Federal Government in
Washington for the National Recovery Administration. I was en-
gaged there in doing statistical research, economic research, into vari-
ous questions of the operation of the economy that were wanted by
those officials that were making decisions on certain of the operating
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 679
jjroblems connected with the NRA codes and other regiihitions con-
cerning working hours and other factors under the NRA.
Mr. Striplixg. When did you leave the NRA '^
Mr. Perlo. In 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go ?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Home Owners' Loan Corporation.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain there ?
Mr. Perlo. For 2 years.
Mr. Stripling. What type of work did you do for the Home Own-
ers' Loan Corporation ?
Mr. Perlo. At the Home Owners' Loan Corporation I was engaged
primarily in statistical research involving, for example, the establish-
ment of statistical analyses of the properties mortgaged to the Home
Owners' Loan Corporation and a projection of the financial accounts
of that agency over a long period of time and similar problems that
were of interest to the officials of the agency.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain with the Home Owners'
Loan Corporation?
Mr. Perlo. Two years.
Mr. Stripling. Then where did you go ?
Mr. Perlo. Then I went to the Brookings Institution.
The Chairman. May I interrupt^ I would like to have the record
show that Mr. Peterson is present.
Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Perlo. At the Brookings Institution I assisted in the prepara-
tion of a volume on wages, production, and national income, which
was an economic analysis of important factors in our economy.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain at Brookings Institution?
Mr. Perlo. For 2 years.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go then ?
Mr. Perlo. Commerce Department.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember the date you went to the Com-
merce Department ?
Mr. Perlo. It was in 1939.
Mr. Stripling. September 1939?
Mr. Perlo. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain in Commerce?
Mr. Perlo. I remained in Commerce for approximately a year and a
half.
Air. Stripling. While you were in Commerce, were you a special
agent, senior economic analyst in the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic
Commerce ?
Mr. Perlo. That might well be the case. I haven't looked at that
record in some time and I don't recall my exact title, but those may be
the proper titles.
Mr. Stripling. When you left Commerce, where did you go?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Office of Price Administration. It wasn't
yet named the Office of Price Administration, but it was soon given
that name. At the Office of Price Administration I was Chief of the
Statistical Analysis Branch of the Research Division. I participated
in the analysis of the inflationary pressures developing as w^e got into
a war economy and consequently forming the basis for decisions as to
the necessity for price control.
680 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In short, in the course of my work there, I think in my own small way
I helped a little bit in preventing ruinous inflation during the war.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go after you left OP A?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the War Production Board.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat position did you hold at the War Production
Board?
Mr. Perlo. In the War Production Board I was one of the analysts
in the Office of Progress Reports. It was my specific responsibility to
analyze problems involved in the production of aircraft and to pre-
pare reports w^hich I trust were of some small assistance in helping
to increase and accelerate the production of military aircraft during
the war.
The Chairman. May I interrupt right there ? Mr. Stripling, you
didn't get the date w^hen he started with WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Was that February 17, 1943 ?
Mr. Perlo. That sounds about right, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When you were in the War Production Board, did
you work with the Resources Protection Board ?
• Mr. Perlo, I don't remember for sure, to tell you the honest truth.
Perhaps you can help me out on that. Do you know whether that was
]3art of the War Production Board?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, it was made up of War Production Board per-
sonnel assigned to the Resources Protection Board, which consisted
of a general representing the Army, an admiral representing the Navy,
a colonel representing the Air Forces, a colonel representing Civilian
Defense and an official representing the Provost Marshal General of
the Army and one official representing the War Production Board.
Mr. Perlo. Come to think of it, I probably never did then. I did
have some contact, very minor contact, with an agency that had to do
with production of war plants. Whether that was the same one, I
don't know. In any case, it was a minor and secondary contact.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Robert A. Graham ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel and on my rights under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution I refuse to answer that question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Robert A. Graham was employed, was he not, by
the Resources Protection Board ? Didn't Mr. Graham give you spe-
cial permission to examine the secret data in the files of the Resources
Protection Board?
Mr. Perlo. I don't recall any such incident.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert A. Graham ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground tliat it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, how will this incriminate you? How
will it incriminate you by answering as to whether or not you know
this person ?
Mr. Perlo. It is my understanding that it is not necessary to de-
fend one's use of the fifth amendment to the Constitution in refusing
to answer questions on the ground that they might tend to incriminate
one, and I have to adhere to that position on these questions.
The Chairman. We will get back to that later. You go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, where did you go when you left the War
Production Board?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 681
Mr..PERLO. I went to the Treasury Department.
Mr. Stripling. When did yon go to the Treasury Department ?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Treasury Department in, I guess, about
December of 1945.
Mr. Stripling. Who requested you to come to the Treasury
Department?
Mr. Perlo. Well, nobody exactly requested me to come to the Treas-
ury Department, as I explained to you Saturday. I was informed
that I had been recommended by various people to Mr. Harry D.
White, then I think an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, and I went
to see him. Subsequent to that conversation I was hired by the
Treasury Department.
Mr. Stripling. That is Harry Dexter White, the head of Monetary
Research ?
Mr. Perlo. He was not head of Monetary Research at that time.
He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. You accepted employment in Monetary Research?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain in Monetary Research?
Mr. Perlo. Oh, for about a little less than a year and a half, I guess.
Mr. Mundt. Who recommended you to Mr. White ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know.
Mr. Mundt. You said you went to see Mr. White on the recom-
mendation of somebody.
Mr. Perlo. I said somebody told me. I don't remember who now,
frankly. Somebody told me that various people had recommended
me to Mr. White and that Mr. White was looking for people to in-
crease his staff and replace people with, and suggested that I call him
up and go around and see him. That is what I did.
Mr. Mundt. Did those people tell you who it was that recommended
you to Mr. White ?
Mr. Perlo. As a matter of fact, I am not sure. I think I may have
been told but I don't retain that information in my memory if I was.
Mr. Stripling. While you were in the Treasury Department were
you a member of the Committee for Reciprocity Information?
Mr. Perlo. That is right. The Committee for Reciprocity In-
formation— I was officially — I will explain my duties there a little bit
in connection with that.
I think I was officially an alternate member on the Committee for
Reciprocity Information and the Trade Agreements Committee, w^hich
were identical or substantially identical in membership. These were
interdepartmental committees which took care of all of the technical
work in the preparation of trade agreements under the Reciprocal
Trade Agreement Act and also to a certain extent a lot of prepara-
tory work for the International Trade Organization.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, are vou a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
both on my rights under the first amendment of the Constitution and
on my rights under the fifth amendment of the Constitution on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party at any time ?
682 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Perl.0. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might infringe my rights under the first a*mend-
ment to the Constitution and also under the fifth amendment, on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. During the years you held these various posts with
the Government were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel. I stand on my constitutional rights
under both the first and fifth amendments and decline to answer this
question on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade
me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, will you stand up and turn around,
please.
Miss Bentley, wnll you please stand up and take off your glasses.
Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley? Do you know Elizabeth T.
Bentley, who is standing, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen Elizabetli T. Bentley before in
your life?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo, have you ever given Miss Bentley any secret
or confidential Government information?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo. do you know Henry Collins ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution and refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incrimi]iate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt, A-b-t?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sonia Gold, S-o-n-i-a G-o-l-d?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Gold, or Beta. B-e-l-a, Gold?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer that question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Veet Bassie, V-e-e-t B-a-s-s-i-e?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever in the apartment of Henry Collins
when he was residing in St. Matthews Court in Washington D. C,
in 1935 ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE • 683
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Hiss?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
]Mr. Stripling. Were you ever at the home of Alger Hiss on P
Street in Georgetown in 1935 or 1936 ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Steve Nelson ?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mv. StiRIPling. Do you know Gerhart Eisler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know George Silverman ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Allan Eosenberg?
]\Ir. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Niven Wheeler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor, formerly em-
ployed in the Treasury Department ?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Eobert T. Miller ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, while you were employed in the Federal
Government were you ever investigated as a security risk or upon
your loyalty to the United States ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever asked to resign from the Government
of the United States?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you resign ?
Mr. Perlo. I resigned.
Mr. Stripling. Did you resign as the result of that request or
resign because vou were a security risk?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I resigned of my own volition.
684 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. How much later after you had been asked to resign
did you resign of your own volition ?
Mr. Perlo. About 4 or 5 months.
Mr. Stripling. Could you reenter Government employment today
if you wanted to ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't want to, and I don't know what would happen
if I tried.
Mr. Stripling. You didn't resign with prejudice, did you?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the circumstances regarding his
being invited to resign I would like to lay before the committee in
executive session.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, were you ever turned down for a passport
to leave the United States ?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever apply for a passport to leave the
United States?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you apply ?
Mr. Perlo. Approximately March or April of 1947.
Mr. Stripling. Where w^ere you going ?
Mr. Perlo. Going to England.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of your business in. going
to England ?
Mr. Perlo. To take employment there.
Mr. Stripling. With an agency of the Government ?
Mr. Perlo. No.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever offered a position with the Interna-
tional Governmental Committee on Refugees?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you accept that position ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you leave the United States in connection with
your work for that committee ?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir; because before I did so I was informed that
steps were being taken to have the offer of the job w^ithdrawn.
Mr. Stripling. Why was the offer of the job going to be withdrawn ?
What information did you have on that?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know. You will have to ask the people over
there in England.
Mr. Stripling. Was it because you couldn't get a passport to leave
the United States?
Mr. Perlo. I don't loiow. The people in England never communi-
cated with me about that. After the passport application I ultimately
withdrew it after I learned there wouldn't be any job over there.
Mr. MuNDT. How long between the time you applied for the passport
and the time you withdrew your application ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't remember. It might have been a few weeks or
a month.
Mr. MuNDT. Could it have been more than a month ?
Mr. Perlo. It could have been.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 685
Mr. MuNDT. Could it have been 2 months ?
Mr. Peklo. I doii"t know.
Mr. MuNDT. It coukl have been ?
Mr. Perlo. I doubt if it would have been that long, but it might
have been.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, do you know an individual by the name
of Charles Kramer?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you recommend him for a job with the Office of
Price Administration?
Mr. Perlo. I wish to consult with my attorney.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Perlo. I would like to suggest
to the attorney that he should advise the witness as to the constitu-
tional riglits. Go ahead.
(Consultation betw^een Mr. Perlo and Mr, Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answ^er this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Stripling, will you repeat that question?
Mr. Stripling. I have other questions, Mr. Chairman, I would like
lo proceed on.
The Chairman, Proceed.
Mr, Stripling. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question on the ground
that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling, Did you know an individual by the name of Harold
Ware?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by the name of Harry
Magdoff i
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground tliat it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by tlie name of J. Peters
or Alexander Stevens or Isidore Boorstein?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Tripling. Do you know^ an individual by the name of William
Ludv/ig Ullmaii, U-1-l-m-a-n ?
686 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Perlo. Oil advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it miglit tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Glasser?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incrimi-nate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald^
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Allan Kosenbei'g ever turn any information
over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Donald Wheeler, of the Office of Strategic
Services ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Charles Kramer ever turn any information
over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Edward J. Fitzgerald ever turn any informa-
tion over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Harold Glasser, of the Treasury Department,
ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fiftli amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on tlie ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Sol Lischinsky, L-i-s-c-h-i-n-s-k-y, who was
with UNRRA organization, ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer this question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness step aside for
a few moments.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, will you step aside, please.
Mr. Stripling. I call Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley.
The Chairman. Miss Bentley, raise your right hand.
Miss Bentley, do you solenmly swear the testimony you will give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
COMMUNIST ESPIOiSrAGE 687
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Striplixg. INIiss Bentley, you have previously been identified
in the record.
Do you know Victor Perlo, the witness who just left the stand?
Miss Bextley. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Striplixg. When did you first meet Victor Perlo ?
Miss Bextley. I first met Victor Perlo in the apartment of John
Abt on Central Park West in INIarch 1944.
Mr. Striplixg. In your testimony which you gave before the com-
mittee last week — I believe it was August 3 — you stated that Victor
Perlo headed the so-called Perlo group of Government employees who
were furnishing information to you which you in turn furnished to
the Russian Government or representatives of the Russian Govern-
ment.
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Striplixg. Is the person who just left the witness stand the
Victor Perlo who headed that group ?
]SIiss Bextley. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Striplixg. Did Victor Perlo turn information over to you?
Miss Bextley. Yes : he did.
Mr. Striplixg. How many times did Victor Perlo turn information
over to you ?
Miss Bextley. You mean personally, Mr. Stripling? Or by other
people ?
Mr. Striplixg. How manj^ times did he personally turn information
over to you ?
Miss Bextley. I would say seven or eight or nine times, roughly.
INIr. Striplixg. Where did you meet Mr. Perlo wiien he turned this
information over to you ?
Miss Bextley. I met him twice at the apartment of Mr. Abt and
the other times at the apartment of Miss Mary Price in New York
City.
jMr. Striplixg. Do you have the address of the apartment where you
met Mr. Perlo, the apartment of Mary Price?
Miss Bextley. I can't give you the exact street number, but it was
on West Eleventh Street between Seventh Avenue and Hudson Street.
Mr. Striplixg. Did any other memljcrs of the Perlo group turn
information over to you?
Miss Bextley. Personally, you mean?
Mr. Striplixg. Yes.
Miss Bextley. Yes. Do you want me to name them?
Mr. Striplixg. Yes".
Miss Bextley. Charles Kramer, Edward Fitzgerald, Allan Rosen-
berg, Donald Wheeler.
Mr. Striplixg. What type of information did Mr. Perlo furnish
to you ?
Miss Bextley. Mr. Perlo, I understood from him, was a statistician
who was employed in that part of the WPB which handled secret
information on aircraft, and that was the type of information which
he turned over to me. That consisted of production figures listed by
688 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
types of planes — fighters, bombers, transports, photographic planes,
and so on.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Mr. Chairman, at this point I
would like to refer back to the witness' refusal to identify Robert A.
Graham and to state whether or not he had obtained information from
the Resources Protection Board and to advise this committee what
the Resources Protection Board was.
Mr. Chairman, we are prepared to show that Victor Perlo, an em-
ployee of the AVar Production Board, was given special permission
to copy secret data on aircraft production, location of plant-making
engines, wings, struts, aircraft arnuiment, B-29 synclironized turrets,
and automatic computing aircraft gunsights, as well as other similar
data. He was given permission to copy this data from the secret
records of the Resources Protection Board.
The Resources Protection Board drew in secret information from
all phases of the war program, on shipbuilding, artillery development,
tanks, explosives production, bombsights, key chemical production,
aircraft production, and chemical, as well as mechanical, components
for the above. Much of this information was obtained from the
Army, the Navy, and the Air Forces, with the understanding that
(1) the information would remain classified as secret; (2) tliat it
would not bs disseminated to personnel in the War Production Board;
and (3) that it would be used only in a specified manner, which is de-
scribed below :
The Resources Production Board consisted of a general represent-
ing the Army, an admiral representing the Navy, a colonel represent-
ing the Air Forces, a colonel representing Civilian Defense, an official
representing the Provost Marshal General of the Army, and one offi-
cial of the War Production Board. A special staff who were, for
pay-roll purposes, employees of the War Production Board, but
who had unique liaison arrangements with the armed services and
all sections of the War Production Board, Maritime Commission,
et cetera, had access to secret information, compiled and focused this
data to show at a glance the most strategic and vulnerable and key
points in the entire war-production program. For example, their
data would show how many F4F fighters were made by (xrumman
at the Long Island plant this month, how many v:ere scheduled for
next month, for the next year; the location at which engines, pro-
l>ellers, and valves for this plane were produced, with many schedules
of such pi'oduction ; when and where the B-29's would come into
production, and the schedules of future production. The location
of each ordnance plant; of every strategic chemical plant, of each
aluminum plant, et cetera, with the volume produced at each and
schedules of production in future months; the number of freight cars
across vulnerable railroad bridges, and the crippling effect their de-
struction Avould have upon the war program.
These estimates of the need for protecting the key points in our
industry were transmitted back to the armed services under the classi- f.
fication "secret" under armed guard to the extent of about 20 copies,
so that the Army, Navy, and Air Corps could make a sound distribution
of forces and measures to protect the vital points of production and
transportation against destruction.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 689
Victor Perlo received permission to copy this data, Mr. Chairman,
and I don't think it is necessary to detail any further the strategic im-
portance of such information.
The CiiAiRMAX. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Is it your testimony Mr. Perlo turned such infor-
mation over to you ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I think that covers it with the exception of
bridges over which freight cars went. I don't recall that being in the
information.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever give you any information regarding
B-29's?
Miss' Bentley. Very little.
Mr. Stripling. When you received this information from Mr. Perlo
and members of his groui), what did you do with it?
Miss Bentley. I took the information with me, read through it,
and in cases where it was handwritten or cases where it was badly
typed, I recopied it and then turned it over to my Kussian contact.
Mr. Stripling. What was the name of the Russian contact that you
turned it over to ?
]\liss Bentley. At first, the first one I had during the days when I
took on the Perlo group, the name of that contact was Jack — Bill, I
am sorry — and later on I was shifted to another contact whose name
was Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see Mr. Perlo in Washington, D. C. ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever call him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; just once. We had missed connections and I
was in Washington. I called him at his home one evening and we
arranged a connection.
Mr. Stripling. But you didn't see him?
Miss Bentley. I never saw him in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Was he disturbed because you had called him?
Miss Bentley. I think so. He was rather nervous about the whole
business.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Before the witness leaves, may I ask a question?
Miss Bentley, did you ever collect Communist Party dues from
Victor Perlo?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Hebert. And the Victor Perlo you collected Communist Party
dues from is the same Victor Perlo who was just on the witness stand ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you collect the Communist Party dues from
him?
Miss Bentley. I collected them from him where I met him, in Mary
Price's apartment in New York City.
Mr. Hebert. When you called him on the telephone in Washington,
how did you identify yourself?
Miss Bentley. I said that this' was Helen calling. I said, '"You
must remember me," and he did.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
80408 — 48 13
690 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you have said you turned this mforma-
tion over to your Russian contacts. The names of those contacts were
Jack and Bill. How do you know they were Russian contacts?
Miss Bentley. You mean whether they w^ere Russians or
Mr. Nixon. What led you to make the statement that they were
Russian contacts ? What let you to believe they were ?
Miss Bentley. Because I was introduced to them as such.
Mr. Nixon. Who introduced them to you as such?
Miss Bentley. Originally Jack was introduced to me by a girl con-
tact I had at that time whose name was Catharine, and after Mr.
Golos' death Catharine introduced me to Bill as my new boss.
Mr. Nixon. Did she introduce them to you just as your new boss, or
did she say, "This is your new Russian contact" ?
Miss Bentley. They never mentioned the name "Russian." They
were very careful about that.
Mr. Nixon. You have mentioned it here now.
Miss Bentley, Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You say it is a Russian contact because your previous
boss was a Russian contact ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. That is the basis for you making the statement ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
■ Mr. Nixon. You don't mean that these people in fact were Russians?
Miss Bentley. If you mean by "Russian" tlie way it is used as
against Lithuanians, and so on, no, because I believe one of my con-
tacts was a Lithuanian instead of being a straight Russian, but if you
mean did they represent the Russian police; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do you loiow whether they were American born?
Miss Bentley. They were definitely not Americans. They each
had an accent and in the case of Jack he told me he was a Lithuanian
who had been sent from over there here.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Hebert. May I interrupt to elaborate more on what Mr. Nixon
has said?
Miss Bentley, in other words, the wdiole pattern of the apparatus
as you understood it from your first contact with the man Golos, the
whole picture was given to you that your future contacts — in other
words, you started with Golos and you knew he was a Russian emis-
sary ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. He told you in the future whenever you have any con-
tacts
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. That these contacts would be introduced to you only
by first names?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hei^ert. And this was in the sequence of the original instruc-
tions given to you ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 691
Mr. Hebert. So that there was never any doubt in your mind that
A\hen you met Bill, Jack, Paul, or Joe that was in accordance with
3'our original instruction?
Miss Bentlet. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. And that you followed through and there was no
reason for you to doubt at any time that these were not the proper
individuals who would ultimately turn the information which you
give to them over to the ultimate Russian
Miss Bextley. Yes. In fact, Jack once remarked to me that they
had difficulty in getting the information to the Embassy, so of course
that would bear that out.
Mr. Hebert. There is no doubt in your mind it was set up in the
complete apparatus that has been described?
Miss Bentley. There is no doubt about it in my mind. I wouldn't
have dealt with them in that manner if there had been a doubt in my
mind.
Mr. Hebert. I wanted the committee to get the clear picture that
you didn't just meet Joe, Paul, or somebody and say, "Here is a
package."
INIiss Bentley. They were introduced to me and from that, from
my previous instructions, I recognized that they were my Russian
contacts.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr. Nixox. Did you discuss the information with them that you
gave to them at any time? Did you discuss the type of information?
Miss Bextley. You mean discuss with the Russian contacts?
Mr. Xixox'. Yes.
Miss Bextley. Oh, yes. certainly ; because they had to give me guid-
ance on what type of material my contacts in the Government should
look for, and they would evidently go throngh it after I handed it to
them and then they Avould conie back with suggestions that this was
good or this was rather worthless and with additional instructions,
evidently, from their superiors as to the type of information they
were searching for.
Mr. Xixox. You in turn gave those instructions to people like Mr.
Period
Miss Bextley. That is correct : yes.
Mr. Nixox. They were supposed to carry out those instructions and
get you the kind of information these people had asked you for?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
I\Ir. Hebert. Did you tell ]\Ir, Perlo, "I want plans and statistics
on production"?
Miss Bextley. ]Mr. Perlo had alreadv produced those at the first
meeting. What I did was to tell him that particular statistics were
extremely valuable and to intensifj^ his search for more of the same.
Mr. Hebert. You did tell him that, though?
Miss Bextley. Oh. yes.
Mr. Hebert. What did he sa}'?
Miss Bextley. He said he would do his very best.
Mv. Hebert. That is all.
The CiiAiRMAX". ]\Iiss Bentlev, where was this first meeting held ?
^liss Bentley'. Tlie first meeting at which I met Mr. Perlo, includ-
ing others, was at the apartment of Mr. John Abt on Central Park
West. It is near One Hundred and Third Street in New York City.
692 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Who else was present at that meeting besides Mr.
Perlo and Mr. Abt and yourself '1
Miss Bentley. Edward Fitzgerald, Harry Magdoff, and Charles
Kramer.
The Chairman. Was it at that meeting that the plans w^ere laid
for you to be a courier for this group ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
The Chairman. You got your instructions at that meeting?
Miss Bentley. It was rather the other way around. In addition
to being a courier I was the one who was to be in complete charge of
handling that group's operation, and actually it wasn't so much l)eing
a courier because they were the ones who were couriers and brought
it to New York to me. But at that meeting I went over as completely
as possible the type of position each one held in the Government and
the type of position that the rest of the group held, what type of in-
formation was available from each of them, the relative value of such
information, and more or less it was a straightening out of what was
available and giving them instructions on what to look for.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Perlo and these others seem very enthu-
siastic about helping in these espionage rings?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Perlo certainly did. There were possibly one
or two others that were not terribly enthusiastic.
The Chairman. But Mr. Perlo did show his enthusiasm in an effort
to get information about our war effort for the Russian Government?
Miss Benti^ey. I would say he was the most energetic one in that en-
tire group.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mtjndt. Did Mr. Perlo know what use you were going to make
of the information he gave you ?
Miss Bentley. I rather gather so from the remark he made to me
at that first meeting, because he turned to me and said, "Is Joe getting
all this stuff safely?" And there was an embarrassed pause and no-
body answ^ered his question.
Mr. Mundt. By "Joe" you think he meant Joe Stalin.
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Any other questions ?
Mr. Hebert. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Miss Bentley, during these hearings two specific groups have been
-joamed — one, the so-called Perlo group, and the other, the so-called
kSilvermaster group, which encompasses the names of about 20 in-
dividuals, at a haphazard guess.
Miss Bentley. I would say so, roughly.
Mr. Hebert. Would you say that those are the only two such groups
in operation, or that there were other groups of which you have no
knowledge ?
Miss Bentley. I would imagine from what I had heard very indi-
rectly that those were only tw^o of a good many other groups.
Mr. Hebert, That there were many other groups operating in the
Government similar to the Perlo and the Silvermaster group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I would definitely say so.
Mr, Hebert. The reason I ask you that is to have it very clear that
this whole espionage could not possibly have been carried on by just
these two groups, the so-called Perlo group and the so-called Silver-
master group.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 693
Miss Bextley. I do know from my Russian contact Jack, who told
me of other people that he had been contacting in the Government,
not by name and position, but he mentioned there were other people,
so I take it for granted there must have been.
Mr. HEBf^RT^It would be perfectly logical for this committee to
assvmie that while the Perlo group and the Silvermaster group have
been identified, there are innumerable other groups under similar cir-
cumstances wliich operated under similar heads to Perlo and Silver-
master that we haven't found out about yet ?
Miss Bentley. I would think it extremely likely from what I have
heard; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Tliat is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stru'ling. I will ask Miss Bentley to step aside and ask Mr.
Perlo to take the stand.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, will j^ou take the stand?
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR PERLO— Resumed
]\fr. Strit'eing. Mr. Perlo, did you furnish any information to
Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
6fth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on tlie ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Is this the same statement you had Saturday?
Mr. Perlo. The same one.
Mv. McDowell. Is it changed in any way ?
Mr. Perlo. It has been amended to indicate it is being submitted
to the full committee today.
Ml". McDowell. Is that the only change ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. If the committee is going to accept the statement, I
want the witness to read it into the record.
Mr. Nixon. At this time ?
Mr. Stripling. At this time, if they are going to accept it.
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Nixon. There is one point about which I would like to question
the witness before reading the statement.
Mr. Perlo. this is the same statement except for, as you say, chang-
ing the name of the subcommittee to the full committee; is that cor-
rect ? The statement you submitted in New York ?
Mr. PEitLO. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. I refer you to your statement, to the sixth paragraph,
to this sentence :
I vigorously deny the charges which have been leveled against me.
Were you in the room when Miss Bentley just testified now?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Those were the charges which Miss Bentley made against
you, previously in testimony before this committee. She repeated
those charges now. Do you mean by this statement that you intend
to read that you vigorously deny the charges that Miss Bentley made
then and that she made today before this committee ?
694 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You deny the charge that Miss Bentley made that you
gave her secret information ? That is untrue, isn't it ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel
Mr. Nixon (interposing). Just a minute. You said that you deny
the charges Miss Bentley had made. Do you deny the charges or don't
you deny the charges?
(There was a short pause by the witness.)
Mr. Nixon. Answer the question. You answered the question "yes"
before. Do you wish to change the answer to the question ?
]\Ir. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution
Mr. Nixon. Finish your statement.
Mr, Perlo. And refuse to answer the question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Perlo, I quote again from the statement that you
have submitted to this committee to read under oath :
I vigorously deny the charges which have l>een leveled against me.
Do you at this time repudiate that part of your statement and want
to take it out of your statement ?
Mr. Perlo. By no means do I wish to repudiate that statement. I
want to point oiit that my refusal to answer questions on the ground
of possible self-incrimination involves no hesitation or shame on my
part. The fifth amendment to the Constitution is designed not to
])rotect the guilty but to protect the innocent, especially from charges
leveled and discussed under conditions of near hysteria such as have
surrounded the w^hole handling of these hearings in the press and
elsewliere.
Mr. McDowell. A parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Do I understand it to be the ruling of the Chair
that this fifth paragraph remain in tlie statement and that it become
an ofhcial part of the records of this committee and that if these charges
are proven, Mr. Perlo is subject to prosecution for perjury?
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, I am not a parliamentarian and I
Avill just have to give my humble opinion. My opinion is he would be
subject to perjury.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, if the committee
is considering possible i)erjury, I suggest that a direct question be put
to the witness and a direct reply made. In making the general state-
ment— I am not sure it would come within the category of perjury.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon has the floor.
You may proceed.
Mr. Nixon. I again refer you to your statement :
I vigorously deny the charges which have been leveled against me.
One of the charges which has been leveled against you is that you
gave secret Government information to INIiss Bentley. Do I under-
stand you to say now that you vigorously deny that charge?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the fifth
amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixon. Then, you do not wish to keep this particular statement
in, because this statement is not true; is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 695
Mr. Perlo. I wish to keep the sentence in the statement.
Mr. Nixon. You vigorously deny the charges made against you and
yet you refuse to testify on the ground th.at you may incriminate
yourself when asked about a specific charge. Is that it?
Mr. Peklo. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. NixoN. On what grounds ?
Mr. Perlo. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate or
degrade me.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Perlo, another of the charges which has been leveled
against you is that you obtained secret information from the agency
in which you worked and that you gave that information to miauthor-
ized people — namely, to Miss Bentley.
You have heard those charges made here today just as they were
made to the committee by Miss Bentley in public session a few days
ago. I understand that now, although you wish to have that state-
ment read into the record in which you deny these charges categori-
cally, without making any exceptions, nevertheless you will refuse to
answer "yes'' or "no" as to the truth or falsity of the major charge
against you. Is that correct?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer the question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Chairman, I think that is a pretty good indication
of how much credence the committee can give to all of the statements
made by Mr, Perlo in this statement that he is submitting to the
committee.
Mr. Perlo. I must express resentment against that statement, con-
sidering that as a witness I have merely stood on my constitutional
rights, which I have emphasized before are designed not to protect
the guilty but to protect the innocent, and it doesn't seem to me a
judicial type of procedure to rebuke the use of the Constitution of the
United States by a witness in a hearing.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo, by making the statement that you deny the
charges you, in effect, are saying that Miss Bentley perjured hei'self.
You have the right to say that before this committee if you can back
it up with facts, but when we question you in regard to what respect
Miss Bentley has made false charges against you, you refuse to testify.
We are not attempting to badger you as a witness. We simply want
to get the truth. You have the right to plead self-incrimination on
any particular matter, and you will note that the committee has never
questioned that right, but certainly now, as a member of the commit-
tee, I question the right of any witness to come before this committee
and make the categorical charge that the charges made by another
witness are false and still refuse to answer questions concerning those
specific major charges.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, before you rule on that, there is another
part of this fifth paragraph in which the witness says :
The Government has already spent a half million dollars on them.
How do you know that to be a true statement, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. It was reported in various newspaper reports and I
am not sure whether or not it was mentioned in President Truman's
statement.
696 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. You don't know that of your own knowledge ?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I don't.
Mr. Hebert. But you make the statement in here of your own
knowledge.
You don't know, do you?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I don't know for a fact that the Government has
spent that.
Mr. Hebert. Now, let me read another sentence :
A grand jury sat for over a year investigating them and found no basis for
Indictments in ttiose charges despite improper nevs^spaper pressure for such
indictments.
How do you know that is a true statement ?
Mr. Perlo. I know that is a true statement, the first part of it, be-
cause the President stated that this was the case, that the grand jury
sat for a long time and considered these charges and found no basis
for indictment.
Mr. Hebert. Do you linow of your own knowledge that the grand
jury has found no basis for indictments?
Mr. Perlo. I assume the President's word on this is accurate.
Mr. Hebert. I am not talking about the President's word. I am
asking: Do you know? The President can speak for himself, and I
want 3'ou to speak for yourself. Do you know ?
Mr. Perlo. I assume— —
Mr. Hebert (interposing). You don't know. I am not asking for
assumptions. I am asking if you know that the grand jury in New
York has found no basis for indictments.
Mr. Perlo. You ask me if I know something, and anything which
I think I know or which you laiow is based on what you know of a
situation. What I know about the situation is that I know they worked
for a long time, just fi'om the newspaper stories about their activities,
but they were working, and I know the President made the state-
ment—— -
Mr. Hebert (interposing). I am not talking about the President,
Mr. Perlo ; I am asking what do you know about it?
Mr. Perlo. I know these facts about it, and these facts are sufficient
for me to draw the conclusion
Mr. Hebert (interposing). Do you know as a matter of fact that
the New York grand jury has found no basis for an indictment against
you ?
Mr. Perlo. Sir?
Mr. Hebert. Do you know for a fact the New York grand jury
has found no basis for an indictment against you, Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Perlo. I think I am justified in coming to that conclusion by
the actual development of events ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that the New York grand jury is still
sitting on this case ?
Mr. Perlo. That I don't know. I read that the grand jury had
been recessed.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that the grand jury has never returned a
no true bill against one Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. That this
Mr. Hebert (interposing). You know these other things so specif-
ically ; why don't you know that ?
Mr. Peulo. Well, my answers weren't related to the question of a
no true bill.
Mr. Hebekt. I am asking you the question : Do you know that the
grand jurj^ in New York has or has not returned a no true bill against
you, Victor Perlo?
Mr. Peklo. No, sir ; I don't know that.
Mr. Hebert. Then, you don't know.
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Then, you do know that the grand jury is only in
recess and can still return an indictment against you, Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir; if that is the legal situation, that is the case.
Mr. Hebert. So then you are not absolved by, as of this date, the
fact that the New York grand jury has not indicted Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know what the legal status is.
Mr. Hebert. You know all about the other legal statutes. I am just
trying to find out what you know about this.
Mr. Perlo. I do not claim to be a legal expert about this.
Mr. Hebert. Have j^ou ever appeared before the New York grand
jury?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to interrupt right there. The
witness has presented a statement. The committee has no objection
to his reading the statement. I think the witness should proceed and
read the statement, and then, after he has finished reading the state-
ment, I think it would be proper for the members of the committee to
ask questions at that point.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I say there that I originally agreed
to let the witness read the statement, but I want it thoroughly under-
stood in the witness' own mind that if he reads this statement he is
reading it under a perjury shadow, and I, for one, will assume that
if he denies anything in here, as general as it might be, that he is
subject to perjury charges, and Mr. Nixon has tried futilely but vigor-
ously to get this witness to say specifically what he means and what
he doesn't mean. I do not believe he should come in here under the
cloak of a general politicalized statement, which will be developed if
he does read it in an effort to make a political speech, in an effort to
make statements without foundation, when he is given the opportunity
to back up his statements he refuses to do so and he conducts the smear
campaign.
The Chairman. I think we can ask the witness questions after he
has read his statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, before he reads his statement, I want
to be sure that the witness understands his legal status before this
committee.
You understand — and you have counsel available if you do not
understand — that the laws of perjury apply to the statement you are
about to read.
Mr. Perlo. Certainly.
Mr. MuNDT. You understand that ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You understand also that the charges have been made
that you know Miss Bentley. The charges have been made that you
know Charles Kramer. If you read this statement saying specifi-
cally that you deny all charges and it can subsequently be proved that
you have known or met either Miss Bentley or Mr. Kramer, you are
then subject to perjury. You understand that, don't you? I want to
know that you understand that before you read it.
Mr. Perlo. I question whether
Mr. MuNDT. There is no question. I want to be sure you under-
stand your rights before this committee. You can talk to your counsel
about it.
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Are you ready to answer the question, Mr. Perlo?
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. I refuse to answer this question on the ground of my
constitutional rights under the fifth amendment in that answering it
might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. MuNDT. Nothing about that answer would incriminate vou. I
want to know whether you understand that you are testifying under
the laws of perjury and that if what you read is subsequently proven
to be false in any respect you are subject to the laws of perjury. Do
you understand that before reading your statement?
Mr. Perlo. Yes; although I can't say that I agree with every in-
terpretation of the law of perjury which the gentleman makes. In
other words, let me give you an example
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. All right.
Mr. MuNDT. Counsel doesn't want you to give the example. Is that
right ?
Mr. Perlo. I will give it. It doesn't make any difference. I am
sure he won't be mad at me for giving it.
To draw the thing to a ridiculous extreme, you can say that part of
the charge was that I worked for the Government in Washington and
that by vigorously denying the charges I am denying that I worked
for the Government in Washington, and I got the impression from
some of the points that j^ou made that this warning you vrere giving
me was really warning me about things that were not essential parts
of any charges leveled against me.
Mr. MtTNDT. It is highly essential whether or not you have met Miss
Bentley, whether or not you have met Mr. Kramer. I mentioned
those two things specifically. The matter about your working for the
Government is a matter of government and not a matter of a charge
by anybody.
If you understand fully the situation in which you find yourself and
wish to read yovir statement as it is under those conditions, you may
do so.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Are all members willing to have him read his state-
ment ?
Mr. Hkbert. He hasn't made up his mind.
Mr. Perlo. I have made up my mind, and I am ready to read it any
time.
Mr. Hebert. You have made up your mind that you realize you are
subject to perjury if you make a statement there and specifically what
Mr. Mundt and Mr. Nixon has asked you about — I am not interested
in ad absurdum charges — I am interested in those specific things.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 699
You said under oath you did not know Miss B?ntley.
jNIr. Striplixg. He didn't testify to that.
]Mr. Hebert. I mean he refused to answer the question. He woukl
if lie reads this; that is what I want to point out. If he reads that.
Mr. Stripling. It wou.kl have to be a direct question, Mr. Hebert,
for perjury to be sustained.
Tlie Chairman. Go ahead, ]Mr. Perlo, and read your statement.
(Consuhation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir. Perlo
The Chairman. Just a minute. He is talkinjj to his counsel.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin resumed.)
Mr. Perlo. After consultation with counsel and in view of the inter-
pretation which the members of the committee, the detailed interpre-
tation which they make of the sentence in question, I will delete that
one sentence from the statement before reading it.
The Chairman. You may do so. That is the sentence which begins,
"I vigorously deny the charges" ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
The Chairman. You go ahead and read now.
Mr. Perlo. O. K.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Perlo, and start reading.
;Mr. Perlo. My name is Victor Perlo. I was born in 1912 in Queens
County, N. Y., where I now reside. I graduated from Columbia
College in 1931, and received my master's degree in mathematics at
Columbia University the following year. I have contributed to vari-
ous technical publications on economic, statistical, and mathematical
subjects. I did '2 years of research in wage and price economics at
the Brookings Institution.
From 1933 through 1937 I served at the NRA and the Home Owners'
Loan Corporation, helping in my humble way to carry out the great
New Deal program under the leadership of Franklin D. Roosevelt.
From 1939 through 19i7 I served at the Commerce Department, the
Office of Price Administration, the War Production Board, and the
Treasury. I contributed my small i)art to the establishment of the
price controls which prevented ruinous inflation during World War II,
to the acceleration of war production necessary for victory, and to the
development of peaceful world trade after the war.
I am now a consulting economist in New York, employed for the
current campaign by tlie Progressive Party.
The lurid spy charges of the Bentley woman and of Chambers are
inventions of irresponsible sensation seekers. The Government has
already spent a half million dollars on them. A grand jury sat for
over a year investigating them and found no basis for indictments in
those charges despite improper newspaper pressure for such indict-
ments. Therefore it is the height of legal and moral impropriety
for this committee to rake up these charges which have been fully
sifted by normal judicial processes.
I am a loyal American citizen, and I categorically assert that I have
never violated the laws or interests of my country.
I am proud of my record of service to the people while in Govern-
ment employment.
I am particularly proud of my present opportunity to contribute
to the' great campaign of Hein-y Wallace for peace, against inflation,
and for decent living standards and full democratic rights for all
700 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
people. Nothing will deter me from continuing to make my small
contribution to building an abundant and prosperous America.
It is becoming increasingly clear that despite headline spy sensa-
tions, the people resent the failure of the special session of Congress
to act on the urgent problems facing the country. The people will
echo Mr. Wallace's call for more red meat and less red herrings.
The people will increasingly demand election of a Congress and
Government which will bring prices down and incomes up, which
will provide housing, education, health, and peace.
I am confident that public sentiment will be revolted by witch
himts, and will demand instead the investigation of war instigators,
of fomenters of race hatred, of those who are truly endangering our
very civilization today.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any questions?
Mr. McDowell. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert, any questions?
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, do you have any more questions?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness remain under
subpena.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
You are excused.
Mr. Perlo. All right. There is one other point I wanted to come
back to briefly, if I might.
That is to get the record straight on aspects of my Government
employment record which were brought into the testimony. What
is the name of this agency concerning which there was read into the
record a long description of its duties, and so forth and so on ?
Mr. Stripling. The Resources Protection Board.
Mr. Perlo. The Resources Protection Board ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Perlo. I just want to state for the record, since you asked me
at one stage about my connection with it, that as I said earlier I don't
remember any details. This is probably the same thing I have as-
sociated in my mind as Plant Protection Board, or something like
that, with which I had very trivial relations and concerning which
all this talk about highly secret and complicated information, and
so on. and so forth, which were detailed here and which I believe even
Miss Bentley had something to say about, I knew nothing of.
There is one other little point I would like to get straight for the
record.
Mr. Nixon. Just a moment. On that statement you just made do
I understand that you indicate you had no access to secret and con-
fidential information; is that correct?
Mr. Perlo. I didn't say I had no access to any at all, but that all
of these things, most of which I had never heard of before that were
discussed in the report of this agency, were — I didn't have any access to.
Mr. Nixon. You had access then to some secret information ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right, sure.
Mr. Nixon. In that connection I want to refer you just briefly to this
one statement in the statement you have filed :
I have never violated the laws of my country.
You, of course, are familiar with the law which makes it a crime
to divulge any secret information to any unauthorized persons. Do
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 701
3'Ou mean by tliis statement that you have never divulged any secret
information to any unauthorized person?
JMr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I have to refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
The Chairman. You are excused, Mr. Perlo.
JMr. Perlo. May I make just one other point?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Perlo. I wisli to make it clear that I came to this hearing volun-
tarily, received a subpena for same willingly, and I would like to see
corrected grossly misleading reports which were contained in some
of the more sensational press.
The Chairman. Mv. Perlo, we haven't anything to do with that.
The lecord will stand for itself.
JMr. Hebert. I think for the record also Mr. Perlo said he came
voluntarily to this committee meeting.
The Chairman. He added that he was subpenaed.
JMr. Hebert. But he did not come to the committee until he was
subpenaed, nor did he ask to appear until he was subpenaed.
The Chairman. I think the record is clear on that point.
We will recess until 2 : 30 this afternoon.
( Whereupon, at 12 : 27 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 : 30 p. m. of the same day. )
afternoon session
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The Chair would like to announce that beginning with tomorrow
these meetings will start promptly at 10 o'clock, and close at 12, and
recess until 2, and then close at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
The first witness this afternoon is Mr. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before we hear from Mr. Koral, I
have one brief witness, and I just want to ask a few questions. It
will not take too much time, and she has to go back to her office.
Miss Burke, would you please stand and be sworn.
The Chairman. Will 3'OU raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will give before this
committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Miss Burke, I do.
The Chairman. You may sit down.
TESTIMONY OF GILDA DE FRANK BURKE
Mr. Stripling. Miss Burke, you are here before this committee in
response to a subpena which was served upon you, are you not ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
JMr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name and present
address.
Miss Burke. Gilda DeFrank Burke, Old Dominion Gardens, Alex-
andria, Va.
Mr. Stripling. Where are you employed. Miss Burke ?
Miss BuiiKE. War Assets Administration.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been employed there ?
Miss Burke. March 25, 1946.
702 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Striplinq. How long have you been employed in the Federal
Government ?
Miss Burke. Since December 3, 1941.
Mr. Stripling. Since you have been employed in the Federal Gov-
ernment, were you ever assigned to Nathan Gregory Silvermaster as
his secretary?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you tell the committee during what periods
you were assigned to Mr. Silvermaster as a secretary ?
Miss Burke. 1943, and from 1944 to 1946 as his administrative
officer.
Mr. Stripling. In 1943 he was employed in the Farm Security Ad-
ministration; is that correct?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In 1944 to 1946, he was in Surplus Property ?
Miss Burke. That is right.
Mr. Stripling, And you were his secretary and administrative as-
sistant during that period ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have the telephone directory or the finder
which you used while you were employed as Mr. Silvermaster's
secretary ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you hand it to me, please ?
(Telephone directory handed to Mr, Stripling.)
Mr. Stripling. Will you look through that list and tell me whether
or not the name of Frank Coe appears therein ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Mr. Silvermaster ever
communicated with Frank Coe ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you also look in that list and tell me whether
the name B. Gold or Bela Gold appears ?
Miss Burke. YeSv it does.
Mr. Stripling. Did he also communicate with Bela Gold ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling. Will you also look up the name of Harold Glasser?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with Harold Glasser?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did he also communicate with Harry Magdoff?
Miss Burke, Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name of Lee Pressman in the telephone book
finder?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Stripling, Did he communicate with Lee Pressman?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling, Will you look up the name George Silverman?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling, Did he also communicate with George Silverman?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
JNIr. Stripling. Will you look up the name William Ullmann?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 703
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with William Ullmann?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling, Is the name of Harry Dexter White in the tele-
phone directory?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Is it listed as Harry White or Harry Dexter White?
Miss Burke. Just Harry White.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with Harry White?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name of David Wahl also in that directory ?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with David Wahl?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name Keeney listed in the directory?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not he ever communi-
cated with an individual by the name of Phillip O. Keeney?
Miss Burke. I have just Keeney here; I do not recall what the
first name was.
Mr. Stripling. What number does it give?
Miss Burke. FEA-229T.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the telephone locator be
received by the committee, as thei'e will be subsequent questions about
it at a later session, when several of these witnesses appear.
Now, I would like to ask the witness one more question.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
(The telephone locator referred to was received by the committee
and will be found in the files of the committee.)
Mr. Stripling. During the time that you were employed as Mr. Sil-
vermaster's secretary, did he ever ask you or send you to deliver a
package to Lauclilin Currie?
Miss Burke. It was not exactly a package; it was in a letter en-
velope, and I did deliver it.
Mr. Stripling. You did deliver it. Where did you deliver this
package, this envelope?
Miss Burke, The second floor of the old State Department Build-
ing.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember approximately when you deliv-
ered it '.
Miss Burke. It was while he was in Agriculture — it must have been
in 1943.
Mr. Stripling. 1943. Do you know what was in the envelope ?
Miss Burke. No ; I do not.
ISIr. Stripling. At that time did you type Mr. Silvermaster's letters ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir; I did,
Mr. Stripling. But you are not aware of what was in this particular
envelope ?
Miss Burke. No, sir,
Mr, Stripling. Those are all the questions I have at this time, Mr.
Chairman, The witness will be called back when Mr, Ullmann
testifies.
The Chairman. Does any member have any questions ?
Mr, Stripling, do you have any more questions ?
704 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Not at tliis time, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Then you are excused, Miss Burke. You will be
called at a later date.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we would like to get this information
regarding the Silvermaster case, because certain witnesses who will
appear tomorrow will be questioned concerning this.
Several days ago when Mr. Silvermaster was here, Mr. Hebert
questioned him rather closely regarding a photo laboratory, or about
photographic equipment, which was in the basement of his home.
Mr. Hebert has a very pertinent piece of evidence there which we
would like to receive at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, with the permission of the committee
I want to direct attention to a copy of the Washington Star of Satur-
day, May 3, 1947, page B-2, which is the real-estate section of that
newspaper, and direct the committee's attention to an ad in the paper
headed "Chevy Chase, D. C." The site is by the new St. John's College,
and then there is a picture of .a residence, a single detached residence,
identified by the street number 5515 Thirtieth Street NW., and the
description of the house which is listed by Frank S. Phillips, real
estate, priced for a quick sale, and Frank Phillips, the real estate man,
is listed as being at 927 Fifteenth Street NW., and his telephone
District 1411, and I read the description of the house :
The interior of this fine brick home must be seen to be appreciated. Custom
built 9 years ago, contains nine rooms and three baths, including den on first
floor, and four sleeping rooms and two baths on the second floor, containing
completely finished and heated third floor. Basement contains maid's room
and bath —
and I direct the committee's attention to the next description of the
house —
In the basement an excellent photographic room, workshop, gas hot-water heat,
detached garage, slate roof, copper tubing, storm sash, beautiful lot 135 feet deep,
with highly productive vegetable and fruit garden.
I direct the committee's attention particularly to the "excellent
photographic room" and also to the testimony of Miss Bentley that
the house did have a fine productive garden in the back of the house
of tlie Silvermaster house that she knew, visited, and stayed at.
I ask that that be placed in the record, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It is in the record.
The next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Alexander Koral.
The Chairman, Will you stand, Mr. Koral, and raise your right
hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Kcral. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER KORAL
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, you have counsel with you?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Boston lawyer?
Mr. Koral. New York lawyer.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 705
Mr. Praeger. 'My. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify yourself, please?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman, I cannot let that go unnoticed.
Through some mistake of the air lines, I found myself in that cradle
of American liberty, Boston, Mass., and then b}^ painful stages worked
myself down to AVashington.
I apologize to the committee for causing this delay, and it certainlj^
was unintentional.
Mr. Stripling. Would you fully identify yourself, please, for the
record ?
]\Ir. Praeger. Boston address or New York address, Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. Both.
Mr. Praeger. Leo Praeger, 401 Broadway, New York City, late of
Boston, early this morning.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, will you please state your full name,
and talk into the microphone.
Mr. Koral. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. Koral. London, England, April 18, 1897.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address ?
Mr. Koral. 209 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ISIr. Stripling. Is that 209 or 290 ?
Mr. Koral. I am sorry, 290 Empire Boulevard.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Koral. Assistant engineer for the bureau of construction of
the board of education of the city of New York.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been employed there ?
Mr. Koral. Save for a lay-off of about 21 months, I have been there
continuously since January 1922.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do joii have any children?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How old are the children ?
Mr. Koral. I will have to figure that ; 24 is the oldest.
Mr. Stripling. Would you identify him, please?
Mr. Koral. That is Richard — the full name is Richard Lee; and
the younger boy, Gilbert Roy, is a year and 5 months younger.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, are you now or have jou ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, have you ever been acquainted with an
individual known to you only as Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. In 1939, did you meet an individual that you knew
only by the name of Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by the name — the first
name being Gaik, G-a-i-k, and the last name S-o-v-a-k-i-m-i-a-n?
80408 — 48 14
706 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, that individual was arrested on May
5, 1941, and June 6, 1941. He was held on a warrant as a Soviet for-
eign agent on $25,000 bail. He resided at Dean Brook at 97 Brooklyn
Avenue, Brooklyn. He was released and allowed to return to the
U. S. S. R. in October 1941. _ . ^ ^
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman, may I say something at this point?
I think that in view of the fact that this gentleman that Mr. Stripling
has identified in the record has no connection with Mr. Koral that
the inference is unfair that the person so identified has any connec-
tion with Mr. Koral.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Counsel, I asked him if he knew this in-
dividual and he declined to answer on the ground that it would tend
to incriminate him.
Mr. Praeger. Well, he stood on his constitutional rights, which he
has a perfect right to do, and I think it is. an unfair way of presenting
the record on something.
Mr. MiTNDT. The Chair will say that there is nothing to prevent
the witness from saying that he does not know this individual and
thus it would not be necessary to answer that it would tend to degrade
and incriminate him.
Mr. Praeger. The only point that I make, Mr. Chairman, is that
there can be an unfair inference, because by reference there might be
some connection between this individual and Mr. Koral.
Mr. MuNDT. There can be no unfair inference if the witness de-
cides that he does not know somebody who has an acquaintanceship
which might be self-incriminating.
Mr. Praeger. Then, I take it, Mr. Chairman, that you are over-
ruling my objection on this particular point.
Mr. MuNDT. That is correct.
Mr. Praeger. I thank you.
Mr. Stripling. This individual that you knew only as Frank, how
did you first meet him, Mr. Koral ^
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you when he first contacted you?
Ml'. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might tend to degrade and incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ask you to become a courier for him in con-
nection with certain work that he was performing?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Praeger. May I consult with my client for a moment, Mr.
Chairman?
Mr. MuNDT. You may consult with him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, do you laiow Earl Browder?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know or do you know Jacob N. Golos?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, would you kindly stand, please, and
turn around.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 707
]Miss Bentley, would you staud up. please?
(Mr. Koral and Miss Bentle3% respectively, comply.)
Mr. SxRirLiNG. Mr. Koral, this lady in black standing to your right
is Elizabeth Bentley. Have you ever seen Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Have you ever seen her before ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
]Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Koral. INIay I turn around?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Koral. I decline to aiiswer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you contact any individuals in Washington,
D. C, in October 194:5, as a result of the instructions received from
an individual known to you as Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you exchange packages at that time wath an
individvial known to you as Greg?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
]Mr. Stripling. Did you know^ an individual by the name of Greig
or Greg in Washington ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever make a trip to Washington, D. C. ?
]Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground
The Chairman. Just a minute. I think that is something a little
far afield. When the chief investigator asks you if you ever made a
trip to Washington, I do not see how that would incriminate you.
]NIr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Just a minute. I am asking the wntness. You
keep quiet a few seconds.
How does that incriminate you?
Mr. Koral. Mr. Thomas, I have been instructed by my counsel that
courts have ruled that what is considered incriminating is something
that the individual that is being questioned must answer.
The Chairman. But this is a very simple question : Did you ever
make a trip to Washington ? It could be : Did you ever make a trip
to Boston, or New^ York, or some other place? I do not see how it
would
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. No.
ISIr. Praeger. If I may
The CiTAiRMAN. I am talking to the witness. Now, you just keep
quiet for a few seconds, and then we will let you talk.
Mr. Praeger. The reason I attempted to interject myself at this
point
The Chairman. I said : You will please be quiet.
Nov,-, you go ahead, Mr. Witness. How does that incriminate you?
In what way would the trip to Washington incriminate you?
Mr. Koral. I am not a lawyer, Mr. Thomas, and I have placed my
legal case in the hands of an attorney ; I respect his judgment.
708 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairmmst. Then, you refase to answer that question on the
ground that it will incriminate yon because you have been advised to
answer it that way ; is that it ?
Mr. Pkaeger. Mr. Chairman, if I may
The Chairman. No; just a minute.
Now, I will ask you the question : Have you ever made a trip to
Washington?
Mr. KoRAL. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That it will incriminate you if you answer it that
waj^ ?
Mr. KoRAL. It may incriminate me.
The Chairman. And that you answer it that way because you have
been advised by counsel to answer it that way ?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Strxpling. Have you ever made a trip to Niagara Falls. Mr.
Koral?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. I want him to answer the question.
Have you ever made a trip to Niagara Falls?
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might inci-iminate me.
Mr. Chairman, may I say something at this point?
The Chairman. Do you want to make a statement ?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have a written statement ?
Mr. Koral. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have a written statement that you would
like to present?
Mr. KoRAL. No, sir.
The Chairman. Don't you think it would be better for the chief
investigator to continue the questioning, and then you can make your
statement?
Mr. Koral. All right.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever receive a package from an individual
by the name of Grig, G-r-i-g or G-r-e-g, in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive any money for transporting a pack-
age from Washington, D. C, to Brooklyn, N. Y. ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Gerhart Eisler ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I am ready for the witness to make
a statement, so far as I am concerned.
The Chairman. Mr. Witness, would you like to make a statement at
this point?
Mr. Koral. No, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have here a picture which was
taken by the Acme Photo and which appeared in the Washington
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 709
Tiiiies-Heiald on Thursday. August 5. This picture was taken on
August 4, 1948, Avhen Nathan Gregory Silvermaster appeared before
tlie Committee on Un-American Activities.
The caption in this picture states : "Nathan Gregory Silvermaster,
former otlicial of the Board of Economic Warfare, is shown as he
testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee yester-
day."
I show you this picture, Mr. Koral, and ask you if you have ever
seen tliis individual [showing Mr. Koral a photograph] ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Striplixg. That is all that I have of the witness. Those are all
of the questions that I have of the witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. :Mr. Mundt ?
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell?
]Mr. McDowell. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. ]\Ir. Koral, have you ever given a statement in connec-
tion with your activities in the so-called espionage ring to the Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. Praeger, ]\Ir. Chairman, may I again object to that question
at this point ? Anything that has gone on
Tlie Chairman. No, no, no.
Mr. Praeger. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It is up to the witness to object, not counsel, and
Avill counsel please be quiet while members of the committee are in-
terrogating this witness.
Proceed, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mv. Koral, have you ever given a statement to the
Government in connection with j^our activitie's in what is known as
the espionage ring in cooperation with tlie Kussian Government?
Mr. Koral. I testified before the grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. Wait now. I do not want you — you cannot tell what
you said before the grand jury. I am not asking you to say that. I
am not identifying any individual. I said "the Government," and
I do not want you to violate the rules of the grand jury, as I under-
stand them.
I asked you : Have vou ever given a statement to the Government
in connection with your activities of an espionage ring as related
to the Soviet or the Russian Government?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Hebert, I wish you would clarify your question.
>Vnien you say "Government," I frankly could not answer that ques-
tion, because I do not know what branch of the Government you are
referring to.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Counsel, I just told you before that you
will please be quiet. This witness can ask that the question be clari-
fied, not you.
Mr. Praeger. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, if I may consult with my
client ?
The Chairman. I just want you to be quiet.
Mr. Praeger.- I have a request to make of the Chair.
710 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Well, if you have a request to make of the Chair,
you just wait a little while. There is a question which has been asked
of this witness.
Mr. Hebert. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that I appreciate counsePs
attempt to protect his client, but at the same time, the Chair is in
this instance, and the committee's attitude at all times, has been that
counsel could confer with his witness and not answer for his witness.
Mr. Praeger. I appreciate that.
Mr. Hebert. Because there is no attempt here at any time to cut
off the witnesses from having the advice of counsel. That is clearly
understood, and the chairman has so ruled in each instance in order
to keep it within the lines of our accepted manner of testimony.
Now, Mr. Koral, I again ask you : Did you ever make a statement
to the Government in connection with your activities as a member
of an espionage ring as related to the Soviet or Russian Government?
Mr. K(»RAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. I now ask you, Mr. Koral, if at any time, at any time,
you ever signed any statement confessing to your part in the espionage
ring as related to tlie Soviet Government ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. You do not deny, it, then, that you may have signed
such a statement, to anybody. Government or otherwise — any state-
ment ?
Mr. Koral. Is that a question, Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. I asked you that as a question.
Mr. Koral. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. You do not deny it, then, on the ground that it might
incriminate you ?
Mr. Koral. I do deny on the ground that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. Then you deny that you ever signed such a state-
ment ?
Mr. Koral. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. Then you do not deny it ?
Mr. Koral. I neither deny — I neither deny or affirm ; I simply am
iiot answering the question.
Mr. Hebert. You neither deny nor affirm that you have signed a
confession about your activities on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate you ?
Mr. Koral. I am not a lawyer, and I cannot unravel the intricacy of
that question.
Mr. Hebert. I am not a lawyer, either; and I am not trying to
involve you. I am trying to ask you a simple question, because if I
told you, Mr. Koral, that I know you signed a confession, what would
you say to that ?
Mr. Koral. I would not say anything about that.
Mr. Hebert. You would keep quiet on that. You would not deny
it or affirm it. Then, I say to you, Mr. Koral, that I have every reason
to know that you did sign a confession. Do you still want to stand
on your constitutional rights and not have this opportunity of denying
it and proving that you did not sign such a confession ?
Mr. Koral. I will stand on my 'constitutional rights.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 711
Mr. Hebert. Then, I will leave it this way, that I know from
good authority that you did sign a confession.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CiiAiKMAN. Mr. Nixon, do you have any questions?
Mr. Stripling^
]Mr. Stripling. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are excused.
Mr. Strh'ling. Not excused. We want him to remain under subpena.
We will call liim when he is needed. We will notify him and give
him o days' notice.
The Chairman. You are under subpena, and we will call j^ou when
we want you again.
j\Ir. KoRAE. Thank you.
The Chairman. The next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kussell.
The Chairman. Mr. Russell, wnll j^ou be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony 3'ou are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Russell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. RUSSELL
Mr. Stripling. My. Russell, you are an investigator for the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Russell. I am.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been a member of the investi-
gative staff of the Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Russell. Since May 1945.
Mr. Stripling Were you ever connected with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation?
Mr. Russell. I was for a period of 10 years.
Mr. Stripling. As a special agent ?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Have you, as an investigator for this committee,
along with other investigators attached to the committee, conducted
an investigation regarding certain persons connected with an espionage
ring operating between New York Cit}^ and Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Russell. I have.
Mr. Stripling. During the course of the investigation, did you and
other investigators for the committee receive any information regard-
ing Alexander Koral, and his participation in espionage activities?
Mr. Russell. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a summary, deleting
certain confidential information, regarding Alexander Koral, and his
connection with an individual by the name of Frank, and an individual
by the name of Greg, who will be subsequently identified.
Mr. Russell. Yes ; I will. Alexander Koral was born in London,
England, on April 18, 1897, and came to the United States during
the year 1900. Koral resides at 290 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn,
N. Y. He is employed by the New York City Board of Education in
Brooklyn, N. Y.
During the year 1939, Koral was approached by a man named
"Frank,'' who told him that mutual friends had advised him that he,
712 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Koral, was in need of funds. Koral at the time of this contact had a
son who was ill, and had a large amount of hospital and medical bills.
Koral subsequently became a courier for Frank and made 12 contacts
for him. These contacts were made with persons known to Koral as
Al, George, or Henrj^, at several different places. The contacts were
made at a seafood restaurant located south of Eighty-sixth Street and
Lexington Avenue, One Hundred and Thirty-fifth Street and Third
Avenue, and at Broadway and Ninety-sixth Street.
Mr. Stripling. These are all in New York City ?
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir. When these contacts were made, Koral
would carry a magazine, such as Time or Life, and the persons con-
tacted by Koral would also carry a copy of the same magazines. The
persons contacted by Koral at the request of the person known by
Koral as Frank would, during the contact, turn over to Koral certain
unidentified material, in a box or a package, similar to a candy box.
Koral would then take the package home, and Frank would come
by and pick it up.
In October 1945 Koral was aproached by Frank, who told him that
he wanted him to go Washington, D. C, and meet a man whom he
called Grig. The contact was to be made in front of a movie house.
Koral made the trip to Washington and contacted Greg and Greg's
wife in front of a movie house, in accordance with Frank's instructions.
Koral turned a package over to Greg during his contact and received
one from him in return. Koral carried the package back to New York
City and turned it over to Frank.
Koral, when this contact was made with Greg, used the name "Al."
The man and woman whom Koral contacted in Washington in October
1945 were Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and his wife, Helen.
In December 1945, upon instructions, Koral again returned to Wash-
ington and met Greg in accordance with a prearranged plan. Upon
the occasion of this meeting Koral advised Greg that there would be
no more visits upon instructions receiA^ed from Frank.
Upon the occasion of this meeting Koral received a package from
Greg and returned to his home at 290 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn,
N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. Did Frank subsequently pick up the package?
Mr. EussELL. Yes ; 2 days
Mr. Stripling. How many clays later ?
Mr. Russell. Two days later.
Mr. Stripling. Was this the last contact that he had with Frank?
Mr. Russell. That is the last known contact.
Mr. Stripling. Did he receive any funds from Frank?
Mr. Russell. Koral was paid by Frank upon six different occasions
for the work which he had performed as a courier for Frank.
Mr. Stripling. How did he receive this money ?
Mr. Russell. It was usually paid in $10 bills.
Mr. Stripling. How much money did he receive?
Mr. Russell. The exact amount is unknown to me.
Mr. Stripling. Approximately how much did he receive or do you
know?
Mr. Russell. I do not know the exact amount or the approximate
amount.
Mr. Stripling. Go ahead, Mr. Russell.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 713
Mr. Russell. The additional information is that Koral thought the
material which he delivered and collected for Frank contained infor-
mation regarding Government contracts.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is certain other infor-
mation which we have regarding Mr. Koral, which we desire to keep
in confidence at this time, because of certain future witnesses wdio are
to appear.
The Chairmax. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any questions of Mr. Russell ?
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The Chairman. I have no questions.
Mr. Stripling. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Duncan
Lee.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, would you come up here, please ?
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. The Chair would like to announce that it will be
impossible to finish with Mr. Lee this afternoon, so we are going to
ask Mr. Lee to wait over until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, and
the members will go into executive session down in their chambers on
the second floor.
We will meet at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. The meeting is
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 3: 25 p. m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. of the following day, Tuesday, August 10, 1948.)
HEAEINGS KECtAEDING COMMUNIST ESPIONArxE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOYEKNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 1948
United States House of REPRESENTATn^s,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met. pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in the caucus
room. Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chair-
man) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators; Benjamin Man-
del, director of research; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. The record will
show Mr. ]\IcDowell is present, Mr. Hebert is present, Mr. Thomas is
present. The subcommittee is sitting.
The chair wishes to announce that just as soon as our committee sub-
penas are served on Mikhail I. Samarin and his wife, the committee
will announce that the subpenas have been served. At the present time
the subpenas are out but the subpenas have not yet been served at this
minute.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
]Mr. Stripling. Duncan Lee.
The Chaieman. Mr. Lee, take the stand, please. Raise your right
hand.
]Mr. Lee, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lee. I do..
The Chairman. Sit down.
Mr. Stripling, your witness.
TESTIMONY OF DUNCAN CHAPLIN LEE
Mr. Lee. Mr. Chairman, I have a brief statement which I would like
to read to the committee.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. We will take that under consid-
eration.
Will you please state your full name, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. Duncan Chaplin Lee.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
715 •
716 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Nankiiio-, China, December 19, 1913.
Mr. Stripling. You are here before this committee in response to
a siibpena served upon you by Eobert Gaston ?
Mr. Lee. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Stripling. When did you come to the United States, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee, The firet time I came to the United States I was about 6
months old.. That would put it in the spring of 1914, I imagine.
Mr. Steipling. Can you give the committee a resume of your educa-
tional background ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I went to various elementary schools. I attended
the Woodbury Forest School in Virginia, then went to Yale for 4
years where I took a B. A. degree in 1935. I was then selected a
Rhodes scholar to Oxford from Virginia and studied there for 3
years, taking both the B. A. degree in jurisprudence and a bachelor
of civil law degree. I spent 1 year doing graduate work at the Yale
Law School. I think that pretty well winds it up.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Govern-
ment?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I was employed in the Federal Government for
1 month in the Office of Strategic Services as a civilian and I was in
the Army for nearly 4 years.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first enter the Office of Strategic
Services ?
Mr. Lee. Around the 1st of July 1942.
Mr. Stripling. When did you enter the Army ?
Mr. Lee. Around the 1st of August of the same year.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive a commission when you entered
the Army ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling, What was the commission ?
Mr. Lee. As a first lieutenant.
Mr. Stripling. When you were discharged what was your com-
mission ?
Mr. Lee. Lieutenant colonel.
Mr. Stripling. Did you spend all of your Army career in the OSS,
attached to OSS ?
Mr, Lee, That is correct, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Since you left the Army, where have you been em-
ployed ?
Mr. Lee. I have been practicing as a lawyer independently in Wash-
ington since I left the Army,
Mr. Stripling. What is your business address in Washington?
Mr. Lee. 1016 Investment Building. That is my present address,
I have had several.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Any children?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; four,
Mr, Stripling, What is your wife's name ?
Mr. Lee. Isabelle Scott Lee. Her maiden name was Gibb.
Mr. SiTJiPLiNG. Are you acquainted with a person named Mary
Price?
Mr. Lee, I am, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mary Price ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 717
Mr. Lee. I tliink probably in 1940—1939 or 1910.
Mr. Stripling. Are yon acquainted with a person by the name of
Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I am acquainted with a person who I now understand is
Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Can you identify Miss Bentley? Miss Bentley, will
you please stand?
Mr. Lee. Yes; I identify her.
Mr. Stripling. Is that Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. She wasn't known as that to me, but I understand that is
her name.
Mr. Stripling. What did you know her as? By what name?
Mr. Lee. I knew her by the name of Helen Grant.
Mr. Stripling. Helen Grant?
]Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Helen Grant?
Mr. Lee. I think it was in October 1943, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet her ?
Mr. Lee. At the home of Miss Mary Price.
IMr. Stripling. Where was Mary Price residing at that time?
Mr. Lee. She had an apartment on H or I Street near Twenty-first —
near Twentieth or Twenty-first.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a photograph of 2038 I Street and ask
you if this was where Mary Price resided ?
Mr. Lee. I believe it was.
Mr. Stripling. On the third floor at 2038 I Street ?
Mr. Lee. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You met Mary Price at this point ?
]Mr. Lee. No ; I met Mary Price in New York.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet Miss Elizabeth Bentley at this apart-
ment ?
Mr. Lee. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet Elizabeth T. Bent-
ley?
Mr. Li.E. I think my wife and I knew Miss Bentley over a period of
about a year and a quarter. Exactly how many times we saw her
during that time I am not certain. I would say perhaps 15 times.
Mr. Stripling. How well did you know Mary Price ?
Mr. Lee. She was a good friend of both my wife and me.
Mr. Stripling. Where was she employed at the time ?
Mr. Lee. At the time I first met her, which, as I say, was in 1940,
I believe, in New York, I think she was employed as secretary to Mr.
Walter Lippmann.
Mr. Stripling. Was Miss Price a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr, Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Political Association?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
718 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of tlie Young Com-
munist League ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. STRipr:iNG. Did you ever pay any dues to Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever pay any dues t,o Helen Grant ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Would you relate to the committee the various ad-
dresses that you lived at in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Lee. As well as I can, sir. I lived at only two addresses, that
is, where I actually had a house or had an establishment, I rented a
room when I first came to Washington near Eighteenth and Colum-
bia Road for a few months until I found an apartment. That apart-
ment was on Dent Place, the exact number I am not sure of. It was
about half a block to the west of Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Stripling. Can you tell me at which one of these places j^ou
resided ?
Mr. Lee. 3014 Dent Place. The two look exactly alike.
Mr. Stripling. There are two apartment houses which are iden-
tical, Mr, Chairman. One is at 3014 Dent Place, and the other is
3020 Dent Place, One is the Irving, and the other is the Holmes.
Now, I will ask you, Mr. Lee, which of these apartment houses did
you live in ?
Mr. Lee. The Irving, the one nearest Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Stripling. 3014 Dent Place NW. Did you live in apartment
18?
Mr. Lee. I believe that is right, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At 3020 Dent Place NW. ?
Mr. Lee, 3014.
Mr. Stripling, Yes, Four flights up?
Mr, Lee, That is right,
Mr, Stripling. You enter, turn to your right, go up four flights
of stairs, turn to your left, and it is the last apartment ; is that correct?
Mr. Lee, That is right,
Mr, Stripling, Consisting of a living room, medium-sized dining
room, kitchen, bedroom, and bath ; is that cori-ect ?
Mr, Lee. There were two bedrooms, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. Two bedrooms ?
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Helen Grant or Elizabeth T.
Bentley at that apartment?
Mr, Lee, She came to visit us there ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Lee. At the apartment I wouldn't be prepared to say, I think
seven or eight times.
Mr, Stripling, Where else did you live in Washington?
Mr. Lee. 1522 Thirty-first Street NW,
Mr, Stripling, Is this a photograph of the residence in which j'ou
resided ?
Mr. Lee. That is, sir,
Mr, Stripling. Did Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant ever
meet you at 1522 Thirty-first Street?
Mr, Lee, I believe she did ; yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling. How many times?
Mr, Lee, I would say only a couple of times.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 719
]\Ir. Stripling. I band you a photograph and ask you if you can
identify this individuaL
Mr. Lee. I am not certain, Mr. Stripling, but I think I dp.
Mr. Stripling. Who is this individual?
Mr. Lee. He was the friend of ISIiss Bentley, who I met on two
occasions very casually in her company.
Mr. Stripling. What was his name when you met him?
Mr. Lee. His name was John something or other. His last name
escapes me. I understand, though, it was Golos,
Mr, Stripling. Jacob N. Golos?
Mr. Lee. That is what I understand.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet him?
Mr. Lee. I met him, I believe, first at a restaurant on Fifteenth
Street, known as the 823 Restaurant.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of the 823 Restaurant. Is that
the place you met Golos?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; that is my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, I show you a picture of Georgetown Phar-
macy at Wisconsin Avenue and O Street Northwest, and ask you if
you ever met Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant at this pharmacy?
Mr. Lee. I can't say positively, sir. I believe I did.
Mr, Stripling. You believe you did ?
Mr. Lee. Yes. I met her at one or two pharmacies in Georgetown.
]\Ir. Stripling. I show you a picture of the Triangle Luncheonette
at Wisconsin Avenue at Thirty-fourth Street Northwest, and ask jou
if 3^ou ever met Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant at this place?
Mr. Lee. I believe so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Lee. Once, as far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of the Dumbarton Theatre on
Wisconsin Avenue at O Street and ask you if you ever attended this
theater with Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant?
Mr. Lee. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall attending that?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of Martin's Restaurant at Wis-
consin Avenue and N Street NW., and ask you if you ever met Eliza-
beth T. Bentley at this restaurant ?
Mr. Lee. I believe so on one occasion.
Mr. Stripling. Will you repeat for the committee the first time you
met Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I said, Mr. Stripling, to the best of my recollection I first
met Miss Bentley at the apartment of Miss Price sometime in October
1943.
Mr. Stripling. Did she tell you what she was doing when you first
met her ?
Mr. Lee. At some time in our early acquaintance, probably then, I
was given to understand by Miss Bentley that she was employed in
an executive capacity in some business in New York. I believe she
said the leather business. It was a selling business, as near as I can
recall.
Mr. Stripling. When you met Jacob N. Golos, what were you told
as to who he was and what he w' as in Washington ?
720 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stripling, may I go into a word of background in.
reply to that ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Lee. When I met IMiss Bentley at Miss Price's, we found her,
as others have, attractive, well informed, a well-educated woman. We
found her attractive and she seemed to find us attractive and we had
a pleasant chat. She said she knew very few people in Washington
and would like to know us better and would like to look us up when
she next came to town.
She did so some weeks later. I think perhaps the second time she
called us up she said she had a friend with her and would like to
have us come down and meet her for drinks at this 823 Restaurant.
It is my recollection that at that time we first met this man. He
doesn't make a very strong impression on me. He was quite obvious-
ly ill. I am reasonably certain Miss Bentley described him as a
refugee writer.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, I would like to interrupt a second.
The record will show that Mr. Mundt is present.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, will you explain to the committee youi
duties in the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. My duties fell into two phases, Mr. Stripling. When
I first went to the OSS', I went partly as legal adviser — assistant gen-
eral counsel, I think, was the actual title — and partly as a member of
the so-called secretariat. That involved partly administrative work
and partly legal work.
By legal work I mean drawing contracts, negotiating leases, seeing
that the way we spent our money was in line with the way the Gen-
eral Accounting Office wanted it and that sort of thing.
Mr. Stripling. Who brought you into OSS ?
Mr. Lee. General Donovan.
Mr. Stripling. Had you known General Donovan before you en-
tered OSS?
Mr. Lee. Yes ; I was employed in his law firm for 3 years.
Mr. Stripling. Did General Donovan and the OSS ever send you
on a mission to China ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; on two occasions.
Mr. Stripling. What were the dates of those two missions?
Mr. Lee. The first was a 3-month period beginning about the 1st of
July 1943 and going to the end of September. On that occasion I
didn't get to China.
The second was in 1945 when I went out with General Donovan,
about the middle of July, and got back in the first week of October.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever tell Miss Bentley anything that you
learned in a confidential capacity while you were in OSS ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You never discussed it with her ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Why did you meet Miss Bentley at the drug stores
on Wisconsin Avenue?
Mr. Lee. I will be glad to tell you, sir, but again I would like to
give this background.
As I say, wlien my wife and I both met Miss Bentley, we found
her an extremely attractive person. I think that maybe was partly
to
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 721
due to the fact that she seemed to find us even more so. We were glad
to see more of lier and were glad when she called ns up.
A^'e saw her, as I say, from time to time sporadically over a course
of maybe 15 months. For perhaps 10 months we continued to enjoy
Miss 13entley's company and it was only over a period of time that we
came to revise our opinion of her.
But after knowing her a good deal better than we did at first we
came to a quite contrary opinion of ]Miss Bentley. We came to the
conclusion that she was a very lonely and neurotic woman, that she
was a frustrated wom.an, that her liking and apparent ardent liking
for us Avas unnaturally intense. AVe began to feel she was an emo
tional weight around our necks and that really there was nothing in
the acquaintance that justified the intense way she did follow us up.
There was one other factor which I will also mention.
]Mr. Stku'lixg. Just a moment. Why did you meet her in the drug
stores on Wisconsin Avenue?
Mr. Lee. I-am coming to that, Mr. Stripling..
]\lr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Lee. One of the factors I would like to mention is when we
first met Miss Bentley she posed as a person who was a moderate
liberal, and that was one of the things we liked about her. As we got
to know her better her views l)ecanie increasingly left wing and in-
temperate and extreme. Frankly, I felt that it was a relationship
which for that reason might ju'ove embarrassing in my position. I
didn't want })eople to say that a friend of mine was talking in quite
as extreme a way as Miss Bentley was.
Xow, sir, to answer your question specifically, in October 1944 or
thereabouts my wife and I decided that this acquaintanca had to be
ended primarily because Miss Bentley had become a personal nuisance
to us, but also because of other reasons.
One evening when she called on us I put it to her quite bluntly that
we thought we should not see her any more. I decided to put it on
the grounds that her views and her expressed views were apparently
a good deal more extreme than we had originally thought.
Now, generally speaking, Mr. Stripling, I don't inquire too closely
into the political views of my friends and I consider it their business,
and as I say, in my position it seemed to be a situation that could be
c|uite embarrassing, and that is the way I put it to Miss Bentley.
Mv. Stkiplin(;. When was that ?
Mr. Lee. This was about October of 1943, 1 think,
Mr. Stripling. Where was it?
Mr. Lee. 1944— excuse me, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where was it ?
Mr. Lee. It would have been at our house.
Mr. Stripling. I still want to know why you met her at the drug
stores.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Strijiling, I am coming to that, sir.
When we told Miss Bentley this her reaction was quite violent. She
cried, she protested that we meant a great deal to her. She said she
was intensely fond of us and she had to go on seeing us and she did
carry on, if I may put it that way, for about a half hour. Finally, she
suggested that, all right, if we felt it was unwise for her to continue
8040.8—48 15
722 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
visiting us at our home, would we continue to meet her occasionally
( lutside at some public place ? In order to get her out of the house, Mr.
Stripling, we agreed to do it.
Now, after that I think we met Miss Bentlej', at the most, three
times. I know that on one occasion my wife and I had dinner with
her at Martin's Restaurant, and I believe on two occasions after that
Avhen Miss Bentley called, she called from a neighboring drug store,
and on both those occasions either we couldn't get a sitter or my wife
didn't want to go out and simply told me to go out and see her and
get rid of her as quickly as possible, which I tried to do.
Mr. Stkiplixg. When 3'ou met her in the drug stores, did you walk
up to her and greet her?
Mr. Lee. I suppose so, sir. This was a long time ago and I can't
recall the exact circumstances of how I met her.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet her in the drug
stores ?
Mr. Lee. As far as I can recall, only twice.
Mr. Stripling. You are speaking of the Triangle Luncheonette?
Mr. Lee. I am pretty clear that we had coca colas once at the Tri-
angle Luncheonette,
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet her at the George-
town Pharmacy?
Mr. Lee. Only once, so far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did Miss Bentley come to your
liome ?
Mr. Lee. I can't recall that precisely, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When you lived on Dent Place, how many times did
she come to your apartment?
Mr. Lee. I think I have already said about six or seven times. I
can't be exact on that.
Mr. Stripling. When she first came to your apartment did you ask
your wife to leave the room?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Ml-. Stripling. How many times did she come to your home?
Mr. Lee. Two or three times, to the best of my recollection. As
J say, 1 cannot recall back that far and tell you exactly.
Mr. Stripling. You never gave Miss Bentley any Comnmnist Party
dues?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any contributions?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I did not.
• Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any money ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any information verbally or
in written form?
Mr. Lee. No, Mr. Stripling; I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; t do.
The Chairman. May we see the copy of the statement, please?
Mr. Lee. I have given some copies out.
The Chairman. Is that the same as the copy we saw yesterday?
Mr. Lee. I believe so, sir.
The Chairman. That is all right, you may proceed.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 723
Mr. Lee. jNlr. Chairman, Miss Elizabeth Bentlej' in her recent tes-
timony before the House Un-American Affairs Committee has ac-
cused me of being a Comnumist and of supplying her with secret
information concerning the OSS.
I want to say categorically that I am not and have never been a
Communist and that I have never divulged classified information to
any unauthorized person. I had been an assistant in the legal offices
of (leneral Donovan before the war ; I had come to the OSS with him
as his assistant; and I was therefore particularly aware of a require-
ment of personal loyalty to him in such matters along with my loyalty
to the service of the United States.
During the war my wife and I met Miss Bentley socially at the
home of a friend. We met a great many people at this time. There-
after we saw ]Miss Bentley off and on for a little over a year. Our
acquaintance was entirely a social one.
I made it a rule during my service with OSS never to discuss any-
thing tliat had not previously appeared in the newspapers, and then
oidy to the extent made public. I certaiidy kept strictly to this rule
in any talks I ever had with Miss Bentley.
I Avas in the Army and in the OSS for nearly 4 years and during
that time worked day and night, both in Washington and overseas,
to further cur war effort. I am sure that (xeneral Donovan and the
other officers under whom I served will confirm the fact that my war
record is one of which I can feel justly proud. While in the Army
I rose from the rank of first lieutenant to lieutenant colonel. I have
received sevei'al official commendations. I know that I have served
my country with complete loyalty and to the best of my ability and it
is a profound shock to find my name and war recoixl attacked by the
irresponsible charges of this woman.
It is liard for me to believe that Miss Bentley 's statements are those
of a rational person. In trying to recall my acquaintance with Miss
Bentley I have been puzzled that I do not remember that she ever tried
to get any information out of me. In view of that fact I am tempted
to believe that Miss Bentley used her social relationship with me merely
to help her misrepresent to her employers for her own personal
l)uild-up that she had access through me to someone of the importance
of General Donovan.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Going back to this meeting you had with Golos,
Avhen did you say you first met Mr. Golos?
Mr. Lee. My impression is that it was in the fall of 194:3, Avithin
])erhaps 6 or 8 Aveeks after I met Miss Bentley.
]Mr. Striplixg. What Avas his name Avhen you met him ?
Mr. Lee. I think it was John something or other. The last name
I no longer recall.
Mr. Stripling. When did you meet him the next time ?
Mr. Lee. Some montlis later in XeAv York.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet him in Xcav York?
Mr. Lee. I met him at a restaurant. I didn't know I was going
to meet him. I called Miss Bentley up. This was at a time Avhen
Ave Avere on very friendly terms Avith Miss Bentley. I gaA'e her a ring,
as she had asked me to do Avhen I came to Xew York, and slie susg-ested
•fefc^
724 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
tlifit we have dinner together. When I fjot to the restaurant this
man was there.
Mr. Stripling. Were yon introduced to him at that time again?
Mr. Lee. It was assumed that I knew him ah-eady. It was only a
few months before. I think she ma}^ have said, "You will remember
John," whatever his name was.
Mr. Stripling. Were you in uniform at the time?
Mr. Lee. Certainly, sir; I was always in uniform.
Mr. Stripling. What rank did you have at the time?
Mr. Lee. Either captain or maior, probably major.
Mr. Stripling. AVasn't the OSS a so-called "hush-hush" organiza-
tion?
Mr, Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Conducting highly confidential and secret work in
the war effort ?
Mr. Lee. It certainly was; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You were closely associated with the director of
OSS, General Donovan; is that correct?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make it a habit of going around and meet-
ing people and having dinner with people when you didn't know who
they were ?
Mr. Lee. I did know v,ho they were — at least I thought I knew who
they were.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know that Jacob N. Golos was a Soviet
agent ?
Mr. Lee. I did not ; no, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make an investigation to determine who
he was ?
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stripling, I don't usually make investigations to de-
termine who every casual social acquaintance might be.
Mr. Stripling. But when you were a high official of the OSS, I
think it would be advisable.
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, I will take your advice under advisement.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make any investigation to determine who
Elizabeth T. Bentley was?
Mr. Lee. Not particularly. I had no reason to.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, j^ou just associated wuth Mary Price,
Elizabeth T. Bentley, Jacob Golos, meeting strange people in drug
stores, and it didn't make any difference.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stiipling, I have explained why I met Miss Bentley
at drug stores. It was an effort to break an acquaintance as painlessly
as possible.
Now, sir, as far as inquiring as to who Miss Bentley was — you met
]Miss Bentley, you know she appears to be a very cultured, well-edu-
cated, high-type person. Without any evidence to the contrary, I
don't think there was any reason for me to make any investigation
of her.
Furthermore, as I said — and I want to say this again — Miss Bentley
to my knowledge never asked me for any information and I certainly
never gave her any.
Mr. Stripling. I will ask the witness to step aside at this time, Mr.
Chairman. He will be brought back to the stand.
The Chairman. All right. Step aside for just a few moments.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 725
Mr. Stripling. JNIr. Lee, please sit here close where you can hear the
testimony.
]Miss Bentley, will yon take the stand, please.
The Chairman. IVIiss Bentley, do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, are you acquainted with the witness
who just left the witness stand?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I am.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen him before ?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I have.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Duncan Lee?
Miss Bentley. To the best of my knowledge it was in either Janu-
ary or February of 1943.
Mr. Stripling. Relate to the committee the circumstances surround-
ing your first meeting of Mr. Lee.
JNliss Bentley. Do vou want me to go into the background of it,
Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. When Mr. Lee secured his position with the OSS
in Washington back in June or July of 1942
The Chairman. May I interrupt a moment ?
Mr. Lee, 3^ou are hearing the witness ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I certainly am,
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Miss Bentley. At that time Miss Mary Price was working for Mr.
Golos and myself. She was employed by Mr. Walter Lippmann and
she was giving us information which she had taken from Mr. Lipp-
mann's files. We had told Miss Price that if she ever found any likel}^
prospect for giving information, she should let us know.
I think in May or June of 1942 she informed us that she knew Mr.
Lee through her sister. Miss Mildred Price, and Mr. Lee was being
transferred to Washington and that she felt he would be a good con-
tact for us. We told her then to have him disconnected from the
party in New York and when he came to Washington he should contact
Miss Price and keep in contact with her.
Miss Price continued to contact him until she was ill with virus
pneumonia in about December 1942, at which time she came to New
York and was ill, I think, 2 or 3- months. Since she couldn't contact
Mr. Lee, I went down to Washington on one of my trips, walked up
to JMr. Lee's apartmeiit on the fourtli floor of, I think it is 3014 Dent
Place, introduced iny;-e]f as Helen — he had previously been told who
I was by Miss Price — and that was the first time I saw him.
Mr. Stripling. Did you explain to him why you had contacted him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I explained that since Miss Price was incapaci-
tated and ill, I would take her place temporarily.
Mr. Stripling. Temporarily doing what?
Miss Bentley. Well, we had expected tliat Mary would recuperate
and come back to Washington and renew the contact with him.
726 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. When you first met Mr. Lee, was anyone present in
the room ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; his wife was there.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ask her to leave the room ?
Miss Bentley. At first we had a rather social chat and then when
Ave came to discussing business he asked her to go to the kitchen.
Mr. Stripling. What business did you discuss ?
Miss Bentley. I discussed tlie fact that he had been giving infor-
mation from the OSS to Mary Price and I said that I would continue
witli tliat. I discussed with him what type of information would be
valuable, and so on.
Mr. Stripling. How long were you at his apartment?
Miss Bentley. The first time ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. I should say I was there possibly an hour and a half
or 2 hours.
Mr. Stripling. When did you see him next ?
Miss Bentley. I continued to see him at the apartment on Dent
Place I should say possibly that spring before he went to China, I
should say four or five times. I can't be sure of that.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall bringing Mr. Golos to Washington
or meeting Mr. Lee?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I remember distinctlj^ because it was about a
month or so before Mr. Golos died and he was quite an ill man at that
time. Mr. Golos died on November 25, 1943. That would make it
either the end of October or the early part of November of that year.
Mr. Stripling. What occurred at this meeting between Mr. Lee and
yourself and Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. I had told Mr. Golos about Mr. Lee, and he thought
that the ]n"ospect was very interesting. He wanted to meet him per-
sonally. Tlierefore, I had asked Mr. Lee wjiat would be a convenient
place for us to meet because I knew he knew so many people in Wash-
ington we would have to find a rather obscure place. He suggested
this German beer place at 823, Fifteenth Street, I think it is.
I remember it distinctly because it has a terrific flight of stairs going
down, and jNIr. Golos had a bad heart and I was worried whether he
could make the stairs going up and down.
At this meeting we sat and I think we drank beer, and Mr. Golos
introduced himself as a high functionary of the Communist Party,
explained that they were very much interested in the material Mr.
Lee was furnishing, and had a long chat with him on the type of in-
formation that was available and what he should look for.
Mr. Stripling. Was Mr. Lee in uniform at the time?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I recall that he was ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee referred to a second meeting with Mr.
Golos in New York. Do you recall that meeting?
Miss Bentley. I don't recall any such meeting in New York. That
was only about a month before Mr. Golos died, you see, when he met
him. Mr. (toIos died November 25 of that year.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Lee ever call you in New York and arrange
a meeting and dinner at which Mr. Golos was present ?
Miss Bentley. I don't see how. he could because he didn't know my
telephone number.
Mr. Stripling. He never called you in New York?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 727
Miss Bentley, No, unless of course he was given it subsequently
by someone else, but I never gave it to him.
Mr. SxRirLixG. He never called you, as far as you know'^
Miss Bentley. Xo.
Mr. Stripling. As far as you know, he never met Mr. Golos and
yourself in a restaurant in New York?
Miss Bentley. Not that I recall : no.
Mr. Stripling. Did ]\Ir. Lee ever furnish you any information which
you in turn furnished to the Russian agents?
]Miss Bentley. Yes, he did.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information?
Miss Bentley. I would say it was various types of information that
was valuable to us. One type was checking on whether the OSS had
spotted any of our people who were then working for the OSS.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you about that ?
Miss Bentley. Originally in the fall of 1943 Miss Price had applied
to the OSS for a position there. She was turned down. They gave
her some routine excuse with no bad implications, but we asked Mr. Lee
to check and find out, if he could, the real reason. He told us, I think
2 or 3 months later, that he had checked through the files there and
found out that she had been turned down because of past Communist
affiliations and connections.
]Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Lee ever discuss with you a meeting at
which a proposal was submitted that the United States exchange 12
OSS agents for 12 NKVD agents with the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. I think that was the number. It might have been
10 or 11, but it was around that number.
Mr. Stripling. Will you tell the committee the information you
have ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it was in the spring of 1944 that I met him
one evening outside his house, I believe, in one of the drug stores. He
was very much upset because he had found out that General Donovan
was interested in making an exchange of NKVD agents with OSS men.
He said this had been brought up in a meeting of, I should say, the top
command of the country — the top man from the Navy — Admiral Leahy
was there, J. Edgar Hoover, of the Federal Bureau, was there, I think
a representative of Roosevelt, and all the top people. He described
that meeting in detail to me. He even went into such details as the
fact that Admiral Leahy was definitely against such an exchange.
Mr. Stripling. ]Mr. Chairman, I don't think any interest would be
served in relating to us what was said by the officials. I think the
committee should hear that in executive session.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr, Stripling. I think there is no purpose to having it in the record.
What other information did Mr. Lee give you ? Did he ever discuss
China policy?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did. I believe it was just before he went to
China in 1943 that he gave us the information that the OSS had
through, I believe, the Navy in China made a deal with Die Lee, who
was-; at tliat time head of the Chinese secret police, in which deal Mr.
Die Lee was to furnish information to the OSS and the OSS was to
provide arms and money to Die Lee.
As ]Mr. Lee told it to me, Mr. Die Lee was not keeping his part of
the bargain and he was getting arms and money and not giving the
728 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
information. It was my understanding that that was one of the rea-
sons that Mr. Lae was sent to China — to unscramble this thing.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell j'oii anything about OSS operations
in the Balkans ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did.
Mr. Stripling. AVhat information did he relate to you regarding
that?
Miss Bentley. He had a number of pieces of information in regard
to Rumania. Bulgaria, and other Balkan countries. There were liberal
groups who were anxious not to have the Russians come in when
Germany was defeated, and these groups were carrying on secret
negotiations in many cases via Switzerland with the OSS. He told
me about those.
He told me about the OSS group that was stationed in Istanbul,
Turkey, as a jumping-oif point for operations in the Balkans.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell you anything about Oak Ridge,
Tenn.?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Toward the end of the time I knew him, which
I would say would be November 19J:4, he told me that he had word that
something very secret was going on at that location. He did not know
what, but he said it must be something supersecret because it was
shrouded in such mystery and so heavily guarded.
The Chairman. What was that date again ?
Miss Bentley. I would say it was near the end of the time I knew
him. The last time I saw him was the end of December 1944. This
must have been October or November, I would say, along in there.
The Chairman. When he told 3'ou that about Oak Ridge, where was
that meeting?
Miss Bentley. That was one of our meetings where we met in the
drug store and walked around the neighborhood.
Mr. Stripling. Do you want to question Miss Bentley now? I
Avould like to call Mr. Lee back.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
]\Ir. Mundt. You heard the testimony of Mr. Lee a feAv moments
ago?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I did.
Mr. MtTNDT. You recall his statement of your calling at his home
(iue night and he telling you that because of your Communist views
they were going to break off the acquaintanceship. Was that part
of his statement correct? Can you corroborate that part of his state-
nient ?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry, that didn't happen. That never
happened.
Mr. Mundt. That never happened?
Miss Bentley. No ; it never happened.
Mr. Mundt. You don't recall any stage of your acquaintanceship
with Mr. Lee where he made known to you that he may have suspected
you were a Commmiist ?
Miss Bentley. He knew all along I was a Communist. There was a
stage when he suspected I Avas a Soviet agent, if that is what you
mean,
Mr. Mundt. Up until then, though, he didn't feel that being a
Communist might in any way give you an association with the Soviet
Government?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 729
Miss Bextley. Up until about the spring of 1944 I couldn't state
definitely. I just don't know.
Mr. MuxDT. From the spring of 1944 on he knew you were both a
Communist and a Russian agent ?
Miss Bentley. I imagine so. because that was apropos of that pro-
posed transfer between NKVD and the OSS, and I remember he was
quite frightened because he said, ''If they come over here, they will
come up to my house, knock on the door, shake my hand, and say
'Comrade, well done.' '"
I remember that distinctly. Tliat, of course, gave me the impres-
sion tliat he did believe I was, and he got very nervous during that
period. It was impossible to see him sometimes.
Finally his wife arranged a meeting for the thi'ee of us toward the
end of that summer. I believe, 1944, and he asked me point blank
if this was going to Russia or whether it was going to the Communist
Party, and I said it was going to Earl Browder.
Mr. MuNDT. The information?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. ISIcDowell.
Mr. McDowell. AVas the name of Capt. George Lubetnitch ever
brought into the conversation ?
Miss Bextley. Who?
Mr. McDowell. George Lubetnitch.
]Miss Bentley. I am sorry, I didn't hear that.
Mr. McDowell. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hehert. When did you first meet Mr. Lee ?
Miss Bentley. I would say January or February of 1943.
]Mr. Hebert. 1943, January ?
Miss Bentley. January or February ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. 1943?
]Miss Bex'tley. That is correct, after Miss Price had come up to
New York with virus pneumonia.
Mr. Hebert. When did you say he first became suspicious that you
were a Soviet agent?
Miss Bex^tley. I would place that in the spring of 1944. I mean,
obviously so. I don't know what he thought before that.
Mr. Hebert. But he gave no indication before that that he thought
you were a Soviet agent, until about 1944?
Miss Bentley. Yes : that is correct.
]\Ir. Hebert. Is Mr. Lee a Communist?
Miss Bentley. To the best of my knowledge ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. What does that knowledge entail ?
Miss Bex-^tley. I brought him Communist Party literature, I col-
lected his Communist Party dues. I was told he was a member in
New York and that he was made a member at large in charge of Mary
Price. I have never seen his party card, but I had every reason to
believe he was.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you collect his party dues from him?
Miss Bentley. Wherever I happened to meet him — in his apart-
ment or on the street sometimes, or at his house.
Mr. Hebert. Weren't these party dues collected periodically over
a certain period?
730 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. They should have been, but in lots of cases they
let them ])ile up a bit and then collected them for that period.
]\Ii'. Hebert. AVho checked on whether it was the right amount or
not?
Miss Bentley. I am afraid to tell you that no one ever checked
on these things. It was Mr. Golos" responsibility to turn this money
in. I don't believe anyone ever checked on it. He simply took the
money down to headquarters and got receipts for it, but I don't be-
lieve anybody ever checked.
Mr. Hebert. Mary Price was the first one to tell you Mr. Lee was
a Communist and a member of the party ?
Miss Bentley. Mary Price was the first one ; yes,
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, has Mary Price been supenaed?
Mr. Stripling. No; she has not.
Mr. Hebert. I suggest that Mary Price be subpenaed.
The Chairman. I might say to Mr. Hebert that everyone whose
name has been mentioned will be subpenaed if they have not already
been subpenaed.
]\Ir. Hebert. Very good.
Now, Miss Bentley, did you ever meet Mr. Lee in Xew York?
' Miss Bentley. Yes; I did meet Mr. Lee in New York, I think I
met him in New York three or four times in all.
Mr. Hebert. What was that occasion? What year was that?
When?
Miss Bentley. Well, the last time I met him in New York was to-
ward the end of December 1944, or possibly the first few davs of Janu-
ary 1945.
Mr. Hf^BERT. '\^nien was the first time you met him in New York?
Miss Bentley. That I can't tell you offhand.
Mr. Hebert. Approximately?
Miss Bentley. I think toward the end of 1943, but I am not entirely
sure of that.
Mr. Hebert. Did you meet him in New York before you met him in
Washington ?
Miss Bentley. I met him in Washington first at his apartment. The
onl}^ reason for meeting him in New York was that we had the policy
of meeting all Washington people in New York if they came up.
Mr. Hebert. What led up to your meeting him in New York on sev-
eral occasions?
Miss Bentley. I don't quite understand your question,
Mr. Hebert. What led up to you meeting him in New York on
several occasions?
Miss Bentley. In common with the otliQr people, when Mr. Lee
came to New York on business or on vacation or passing through New
York, we made it the policy to take all our people out and entertain
them, take them to dinner, and so on.
Mr. Hebert. How did you know he was in New York ?
Miss Bentley. Because he would let me know ahead of time that
he was coming up to New York or he would send word through JNIary
Price, who moved up to New York in November of 1943.
Mr. Hebert. But he never telephoned you in New York?
Miss Bentley. No ; he did not. He did not know my number that
I know of.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 731
Mr. Hkhert. Tlierefore, any time j'Oii mot liim in Ne^v York it was
tlirough another party?
^liss Bentley. It was either through another party or prearranged
in Washington.
Mr. Hebert. And the place you would meet him would be desig-
nated ?
Miss Bfntlet. It varied according to where he was and which was
most convenient. I met him once at Longchamps on Fifth Avenue
and Twelfth Street, and once at Longchamps on Fifty-seventh Street.
Mr. Hebert. Is Longchamps a very secretive place in New York?
Miss Bentley. The policy was not to meet at a secret place. The
Ijolic}' is to pick as respectable a place as possible.
Mr. Hebert. You said a few minutes ago he suggested meeting at
a place where he wouldn't be seen with you.
• Miss Bentley. That isn't quite what I was trying to say.
]Mr. Hebert. What were you trying to say ?
]Miss Bentley. I was trj'ing to say that in general espionage agents
tried to be seen in respectable places provided those places are not a
jjlace where you would meet someone you knew.
Mr. Hebert. At Longchamps you wouldn't meet anybody you
knew?
Miss Bentley. I didn't know anyone in the neighborhood and I pre-
sume Mr. Lee didn't either.
Mr. Hebert. It is one of the largest restaurants in NeAV York,
isn't it ?
Miss Bentley. It certainh^ is, but I knew of no one who lived in that
neighborhood or who frequented it.
Mr. Hebert. Let us get back to the first time you met Mr. Lee. You
knocked on the door and said, "This is Helen'" ?
Miss Bentley. I knocked on the door, Mr. Lee opened it, and I
said, ''Good evening, Duncan, this is Helen. I think Mary Price has
told you about me." He said, "Yes,'' and asked me to come in.
Mr. Hebert. That was in 1943 ?
Miss Bentley. That was either in January or February of 1943 ;
yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You met under those circumstances and in your opin-
ion Mr. Lee didn't think you were a Soviet agent when you were using
a code name ?
Miss Bentley. At that time I don't believe he did because it was
common practice among Communists to know people by pseudonyms
and first names.
Mr. Hebert. What would be j'our reason for meeting him if you
weren't an agent?
Miss Bentley. In common with lots of other Communists down
here. I think they actually believed the material was going to the
Conmumist Party. I can't figure their mental processes any better
than that.
]Mr. Hebert. Let's differentiate now between the Communist Party
and the Russian agent. Is there any difference in your mind?
Miss Bentley. There is no difference in my mind because I know
what the Communist Party stands for, but a good many people who
did join the Communist Party did make that distinction."^
Mr. Hebert. Why would they be passing secret information to the
Connnunist Party ?
732 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Because they believed it would be useful for the
Communist Party in Communist strategy.
Mr. Hebert. What would that strategy ultimately be?
Miss Bentley. That strategy ultimately would be the overthrow
of this Government, but I don't think they believed that.
Mr. Hebert. I can't quite follow you, Miss Bentley.
Miss Bentley. I think it is quite difficult, Mr. Hebert, for anyone
to follow the processes of the Communist mind unless you have at one
time been one and been under the influence.
Mr. Hebert. By that statement probably none of us would ever
r.nderstand the machinations of the Communist Party unless we had
been a member.
Miss Bentley. I rather doubt it because it is very hard to explain.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't it seem very strange to you that Mr. Lee didn't
think you were a Communist agent, a Russian agent, when you intro-
(]uced yourself to him as Helen, a code name, called him by the code
name of Duncan, and then discussed the information that would be
given to you? Mr. Lee impresses me at this time, the first time I have
seen him, as an intelligent man, his background is certainly intellectual.
What quirk of his intellect would indicate at that time that you
were just Helen, a nice "gal" to laiow ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know how I could have impressed him as
]i0t being a Communist. I still don't think at the beginning he knew
I was a Soviet agent.
Mr. Hebert. Then he was passing this information on to you just
for the purposes of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. That was my understanding at first. Later on I
believe he did have a question in his mind, as I have explained.
Mr. He;bert. That was in 1944, you say ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it was the spring of 1944; yes.
. Mr. Hebert. For a year these contacts continued and still he never
tliought or he never indicated to you that he thought you were a Com-
]nunist agent ?
Miss Bentley. He did indicate he thought I was a Communist.
He did not indicate he thought I was a Soviet agent.
Mr. Hebert. In 1944?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Now, Miss Bentley, you heard Mr. Lee describe a
scene in his home, a very emotional scene. Did that ever take place?
Miss Bentley. That scene never took place.
Mr. Hebert. That never did take place; nothing like that ever
happened?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Hebert. So, we get down to it, either you or Mr. Lee is lying
today.
Miss Bentley. I guess that is the only conclusion you can draw.
Mr. Hebert. Both of you cannot be telling the truth.
Miss Bentley. It would seem so.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Ckairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to ask the witness regarding these meet-
ings in the drug store.
Miss Bentley. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 733
Mr. Stkipi>ix(;. Did you meet, as Mr. Lee said, you would go in and
Lave a Coca-Cola together?
Miss Bextley. No ; on the contrary, I would usually get there first
i^nd be drinking a Coca-Cola when Mr. Lee came in to buy cigarettes.
Mr. Stripling. Would he recognize you ?
Miss Bentley. No; he would look at me and walk out, and I would
follow him for about three or four blocks until he slowed down and
1 cauglit up witli him.
Mr. Stripling. But you never sat with him in the drug store and
had a Coca-Cola ?
Miss Bentley. I do not recall having done so. I may have in the
earlier days Avhen he was not quite so frightened, but I do not recall
doing so.
]\Ir. Stripling. Mr. Lee became so frightened — —
Miss Bentliy. Yes ; definitely, after that incident that I spoke of
lie became very frightened.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions at this time.
The Chairman. Does any member have any further questions ?
Mr. MuNDT. Not at this time.
The Chairman. Not at this time.
iSIr. Stripling. Mr. Lee.
TESTIMONY Or DUNCAN CHAPLIN LEE— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, j^ou have heard the testimony of Miss
Bentley.
Mr. Lee. I certainlj^ have, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do 3'ou deny or affirm it?
Mr. Lee. I deny it; and in every respect in which it is contrary to
the testipnony I have previously given.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. ]Mr. Lee. it would seem to me that if you were in tlie
OSS and being approached by a woman with Communist views
who had displayed an unusual intensity, you said, in trying to pursue
your W'ife and you, and cultivate your acquaintance and maintain
your friendship, tliat she had done that over a period of montiis,
and perhaps years, you had b?en alarmed and disturbed by her pro-
nounced Communist tendencies, so much so that you created — you
said that she created a very emotional scene in your home, accord-
ing to your testimony, And you were an officer of the OSS, certainly
if that part of your testimony is correct, you reported those facts
at that time to some one of your superior officers. To whom did you.
re])ort that ?
Mr. Lee. Excuse me, sir. I tried to make it clear in my testi-
mony, Mr. ]Mundt, that the major element which led my wife and
me to want to break our relationship with Miss Bentley was a purelv
personal one. She was becoming a personal nuisance to us. Now. I
thought her views were too advanced, as w^e got to know^ her better. l)Ut
that Avas a very minor element.
Mr. jNIundt. What do you mean by advanced views ?
Mr. Lee. Perhaps, that was not the best word. I mean too extreme,
too left wing, too communistic. I had no knowledge that she was
in fact a Communist, and she had done nothing to lead me to suppose
734 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
that she was a Russian or a Communist agent. As far as I know, and
to the best of my recollection, she never sought any information
from me.
Mr. MuNDT. But you do recall that she had made herself more or
less a personal nuisance by her persistency in trying to cultivate and
then retain the friendly association with your wife and you.
Mr. Lre. Yes, sir ; but we thought that was
Mr. MuNDT. And you do recall that you became disturbed about
the fact because her views were so proconnnunistic.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. IMuxDT. So, as a consequence of a lady whose views were pro-
comnuniistic, pressing herself upon you so frequently and so forcibly,
you sought t-o break the relationship.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Mundt, I tried to explain, we gave Miss Bentley the
reason that her views were so left wing as a reason tliat we wanted
to break off tlie relationship.
Mr. Mundt. But you testified before us that you had observed her
views to have become procommunistic.
Mr. Lee. But that was a very minor element and she had done
nothing to lead us to suppose so.
jSIr. Mundt. I am not saying that she had done anything. But you
testified a few moments ago that you and your wife had observed her
views becoming left wing, as far as you were able to observe.
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. And finally they became so definitely procommunistic
that you felt tliat you did not want a lady of that type pressing herself
on your person.
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. IMuNDT. So, 3'ou decided to break the relationship.
Mr. Lee. That is"^right.
Mr. Mundt. Certainly, then as an officer of the OSS whose job, in
part, was counterespionage, you must have reported that strauge
sequence of events to some one of your superior officers. You did not
keep that secret to yourself. Surely, you must have told someone
and I am trying to find out to whom, as a subordinate officer, you re-
ported this strange sequence of events which finally became apparent to
you and your wife.
Mr. Lee. JNIr. jNlundt, I must respectfully disagree that there was
anything that happened in our relationship with Miss Bentley that
led me to believe that I should report it to anyone. We considered
this to be entirely, if not primarily, a personal problem.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Lee, a man of your eclucation and fine intellect
must surely have felt that there was something curious about the
fact that a pro-Communist woman should pursue you as an officer of
the OSS to press upon you her presence so frequently, to seek to meet
you at drug stores, to try to find occasions to contact you, whether
she had asked you for information or not. Surely, you must have
thought there was something peculiar about this communistically
inclined woman pressing herself upon yon.
Mr. Lee. She did not pursue me, sir, as an officer of the OSS, as far
as I knew then.
Mr. Mundt. You were an officer of the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. I was. That is perfectly true, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How could she pursue you in any other capacity?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 735
Mr. T.EK. Slie pursued my wife and me as personal friends; that is,
nt least, what we understood.
Mr. jMuxdt. That is what she gave you to understand?
Mr. Lee. Tliat is what she gave us to understand.
Mr. jNIundt. But surely a man who had the capacity in OSS to rise
up to the rank of lieutenant colonel had the capacity to figure out
that something was unusual; that this woman over a period of time
liad pursued you, either as an individual or as an oflicer in the OSS;
t ither way, you were in the OSS. and gradually it dawned upon you
tliat this woman was a Comnuuiist, so, "^ly wife and I should have
no more to do with her." But then you did not tell it to j^our superioi"
officer.
Mr. Lee. No. sir.
A[r. Mi'XDT. You did not report it to anyone.
Mr. Lee. Excuse me ; that is not the reason we decided not to have
anything more to do with her. The reason we decided was because
slie was a personal nuisance: the reason we gaA^e her was that because
we thouglit it would be kinder to her and hurt her less. It was an
im])ersonal reason.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean if she v>-as a little less persistent, even though
slie was a Communist, you would be perfectly willing to pursue the
association?
Mr. Lee. Unless I kn.ew in fact that she was a Communist. All I
knew, her views were too left wing, and I say that I never drew the
conclusion.
Mr. MuNDT. All I can say is that whatever else comes from this
testimony, that I am bitterly disappointed to find out that that is the
way the OSS operated under Mr. Donovan.
The Chairmax. Mr. Lee, I am going to review the record, or at least
I am going to have you review the record.
After vou jyraduated from Yale, what did vou do?
Mr. Lee. After I took my bachelor of arts degi'ee at Yale?
The CiiAiRMAX. Yes.
Mr. Lee. I went to Oxford for 3 years, sir.
The Chairman. And then you graduated from Oxford in what
vear?
Mr. Lee. In 1938.
The Chairman. What did you do after that ?
Mr. Lee. I took 1 vear of graduate work at the Yale Law School.
The Chairman. 1939. What did you do after that ?
Mr. Lee. I then went to work in General Donovan's law firm in
New York.
The Chairman. And you were with that law firm for how long a
period of time ?
Mr. Lee. Until I came to Washington in June of 1942 — the end of
June 1942.
The Chairman. So, in that period of 3 years, when you were in
New York, what organizations did you join?
]Mr. Lee. The only organizations that I can be sure that I joined at
that time — I was an associate, I think they call it, of the New York
City Bar Association. I served as counsel to two relief organizations,
and I believe that is all, sir. I was a member of the American Society
of Rhodes Scholars.
The Chairman. What are those relief organizations?
736 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. One was the Russian War Relief and the other was known
as the China Aid Council, and the American Committee for Chinese
War Orphans.
The Chairman. How long were you counsel for the Russian War
Relief?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall exactl}^, sir. I should think about a year.
The Chairman. Why did you not continue as counsel for the Rus-
sian War Relief ?
Mr. Lee. Because I was coming to Washington to work for the
Government.
The Chairman. How did you get the position as counsel for the
Russian War Relief?
Mr. Lee. My services were recjuested by Mr. Carter, the president
of the organization, who asked General Donovan to release me part-
time to do that w^oik. It was not a job, I might say, that I sought.
The Chairman. Had you known Mr. Carter prior to that time that
he approached you to take the position?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I met him before.
The Chairman. Where did you meet Mr. Carter ?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall precisely. I knew his Avife in this Chinese
relief organization; she was the head of that, and I worked with her.
The Chairman. How long had 3'ou known jNIr. Cailer?
Mr. Lee. Since sometime in 1940, Mr. Chairman. I would guess it
Avas that time — it might be 1939.
I'he Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings with Mr. Carter?
Mr. Lee. I have attended various board meetings of the Russian
War Relief with him.
The Chairman. I mean, prior to the time that you went as counsel
to the Russian "War Relief. Did vou attend any meetings with Mr.
Carter?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall any, sir.
The Chairman. Well, it is not clear to me just how Mr. Carter
liappened to select you as the person to be the counsel for the Russimi
War Relief.
Mr. Lee. I had met Mr. Carter through his wife, and I had for
some months prior to the organization of the Russian War Relief
worked for the Chinese relief organization and had put through a
consolidation of two separate relief organizations that had previously
existed and had done other legal jobs for them, and I imagine tliat
Mrs. Carter suggested that I was someone who could help him if he
Avanted help.
The Chairman. Did you belong to any other organizations in New
York, any civic organizations ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or patriotic organizations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; not to my recollection.
The Chairman. When you came to Washington, did you join any
or<i:anization here in Washington?
Mr. Lee. During the war; no, sir. Since the war, I haA^e joined, I
think, the Institute of Pacific Relations, in 1946.
The Chairman. What Avas the name of that?
Mr. Lee. Institute of I'acific Relations. At that time, I Avas working
on Cldnese matters, and I Avanted to take the literature Avhich they
l)ut out currently on the Far East.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 737
The ('iiAiKMAX. Have you joined any other orounizations in
Washington besides that?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; not to ni}' recollection.
The CiiAiR3iAN. Yon mentioned that Miss Bentley was a pergonal
luiisance.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In what way was she a personal nuisance?
Mr. Lee. It is hard to describe this too precisely, sir.
What I am tryino- to say is that Miss Bentley, as we got to know he:
over a period of months.' seemed to us to rely too much emotionally
u])on us, as though we were an emotional crutch for her.
The CiTATinrAx. That is not clear to me. I would just like to havt^
you explain tlnit. Assuming that I am Miss B?ntley, how would
i —
(Laughter.)
]Mr. Lee. Well, sir. I see the difiiculty, Mr. Chairman. For one
tiling. Miss Bentley protested her affection for us too nnich; she called
us up, we felt, more often than the acquaintance justified.
The Chairmax. Well, would anybody be a personal nuisance jusb
because they called you up more times than were justified?
Mr. Lee.' I might mention one other thing in that connection, sir.
As I say, when we first met Miss Bentley we felt that she was an
unusually interesting and well-informed person. As we got to know
lier better, we revised our opinion in that respect as well. AVe found
her somewhat dull.
The Chairman. So, when you found her dull, and then you thought
it essential to meet her in a drug store and tell her that she was too
chill ?
Mr. Lee. I was careful not to tell her that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, was it necessary to go out of the house and
go to a drug store to sever the friendship?
Mr. Lee." Mr. Chairman, I suppose people have different ways of
getting rid of an emotional friend. It is a difficult problem, I think,
in each case. I am not sure that we handled it in the best possible
way. But we did vdiat we considered at that time to be the kindest
and the easiest way. We felt that we had here an extremely tense,
emotional situation that might result in a scene anyway, and we
wanted
The Chairman. Well, aside from her calling you a number of times,
in what other ways was she a nuisance ?
Mr. Lee. She protested her fondness for us too much.
The Chairman. She protested fondness ?
Mr. Lee. She kept saying how fond she was of us when she was
with us, and she said it too often and too much. It seemed to us
unnatural and unhealthy.
The Chairman. I do'not quite understand that, but maybe you are
right. [Laughter.]
Then, when you went to the drug store, just relate the conversation
that you had with Miss Bentley at the drug store?
Mr. Lee. Well, I cannot recall the precise conversation, Mr. Chair-
man. I do know that the two meetings that I recall having with Miss
Bentley in a drug store were the last two times that 1 ever saw her, and
80408—48 16
738 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
1 went to meet her for the purpose of persuading her that we should
end this acquaintance, and as near as I can recall. Miss Bentley was
concerned to see to it, as far as possible, that she should continue it,
and kept asking whether we had not changed our mind, and that sort
of thing.
The Chairmax. Would it not have been more natural if your wife
had gone to the drug store and met Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. As I say, sir, my wife and I both met Miss Bentley on one
occasion at Martin's Restaurant after the incidents that I have pre-
viously described. The other two times my wife just did not want to
go or else we did not have a sitter. I do not recall precisely why.
The Chairman. When you went to the drug store the first time,
what did you discuss with Miss Bentley? You said there were two
meetings in tlie drug store.
Mr. Lee. As far as I recall, Mr. Chairman, we discussed the same
thing on both occasions.
The Chairman. And the approximate date ©f the second meeting
was when?
Mr. Lee. I would say that both meetings occurred possibly one in
November and the other in December of 1944.
The Chairman. Now, you said her views were too extreme.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Please explain in detail to the committee just what
you mean b}' tlie statement that her "views were too extreme."
Mr. Lee. I mean just this, sir, that as we got to know Miss Bentley
better, she seemed to prefer ai-guments with us on such issues as the
rights and wrongs of the Soviet cause and the Russian-German pact.
As to whether the second front was delayed in coming, as to whether
the Soviet regime in Russia was a good thing for the Russians or a
bad tiling for the Russians, were some of the things she discussed,
and since we did not see eye to eye on those points, the discussions
liecame, on the whole, less enjoyable.
The Chairman. Have you ever been in one of the Longchamps
Restaurants ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Which one?
Mr. Lee. I have been in various Longchamps Restaurants.
The Chairman. Have you been in the one down at Twelfth Street?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I recall meeting Miss Bentley on one occasion.
The Chairman. You said that before, I take it ?
Mr. Lee. Sir?
The Chairman. I say, you admitted that before.
Mr. Lee. I do not believe I was asked that before.
The Chairman. When you met Miss Bentley down in the Long-
champs Restaurant before, what was the purpose of that meeting?
Mr. Lee. I, at that time, Mr. Chairman, believe that our relations
with Miss Bentley were good, and we still were fond of her. She
liad said to call her up whenever I was in New York, and I think
I did on two occasions. One was the dinner which I described,
and one was this meeting, and all I can recall about it was that we
had a drink.
The Chairman." What time of the day was that?
Mr. Lee. About the cocktail hour, 5 o'clock or 6 — somewhere around
there.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 739
The Chairman. How long did you stay at the Longchainps Res-
taurant^
Mr. Lee. I cannot recall exactly, sir. I think enough time to have,
perhaps, two Martinis.
The Chairman. Just you two alone?
■ Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; as near as I can recall, I am quite sure of that.
The Chairman. You had Miss Bentley's telephone number ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is her number — what was her number?
Mr. Lee. I do not remember now, sir. I no longer have it. I
think the exchange was Watkins.
The Chairman. Did you have her telephone number in both New
York and AVashington?
Mr. Lee. I did not know she had a Washington number, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. Did you know where she stayed in Washington
when she came to Washington ?
Mr. Lee. No; I think I was under the impression that she fre-
quently took night trains back to New York.
The Chairman. Then, how did you get in touch with Miss Bentley
when you wanted to meet her in the drug store ?
Mr. Lee. She called us, sir.
The Chairman. She called you ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I would say that except for two occasions when
1 called Miss Bentley in New York, at a time when there was a genuine
friendship there, neither my wife nor I ever took the initiative of seeing
]Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. Well, now, you admit that you met her twice in
a drug store in Washington ; you admit that you met her in a Long-
champs Restaurant down at Twelfth Street, New York City.
JNIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What other times did you meet Miss Bentley, and
where?
Mr. Lee. I think we have covered in this testimony all the other
times that I have ever met Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. Well, you just tell me.
Mr. Lee. Well, that would be, sir, the meetings that you describe,
the ones we had dinner together at Martin's once, the three of us
The Chairman. Martin's? Where is that?
Mr. Lee. INIartin's Restaurant in Georgetown. That was in George-
town, Mr. Chairman, and the other meetings, as far as I can recall,
were in our house or in our apartment.
The Chairman. There were no other meetings in New York City ?
INIr. Lee. Only the ones that I described.
The Chairman. That is the one at Longchamps ?
Mr. Lee. That is right.
The Chairman. What was the other one again ?
IMr. Lee. That was in a restaurant on the west side.
The Chairman. What is the name of that restaurant ?
Mr. Lee. I am not sure I recall now, sir. All I can say is that it
v.as very far to the west, nearly at the Hudson.
The Chairman. Do you know the name of that restaurant?
Mr. Strh'ling. Was that the one at which Golos was present?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
740 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Wlien was tliis ?
Mr. Lee, My recollection is that it would be some months after first
meeting Miss Bentley. I imagine that would be the early spring of
1944.
Mr. Striplixg. "Well, he died in Xovember 1943.
Mr. Lee. Well, then, it must have been earlier.
The Chairman. All right.
Now, when you met Mr. Golos. what was the purpose of that meet-
ing with Mr. Golos and INIiss Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. There Avas no purpose as far as I was concerned. He was
someone along with her, and I had not expected to see him.
The Chairman. So, if he died when he did, Mr. Stripling — when
did he die?
JSIr. Stripling. November 1913.
The Chairman. November 1943, it must have been earlier than that.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Chairman, may I say one thing? We are talking
about events that occurred 5 years ago, and I do not pretend to be
precise.
The Chairman. I realize that. Who arranged for that meeting
between Mr. Golos, Miss Bentley, and yourself?
Mr. Lee. Which one, sir, the meeting in New York ?
The Chairman. The meeting which you had in New York.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I called Miss Bentley when I got to Nev\' York
on this occasion, and I forget whether I suggested that we have din-
ner or whether she did. I think she did. And when I got to the
restaurant, Mr. Golos was there present. He was there with her.
The Chairman. Had you ever heard of Mr. Golos before that
time?
Mr. Lee. My recollection is that this was the second time I saw him ;
I had met him in Washington previously.
The Chairman. Where did you meet Mr. Golos in Washington
previously ?
Mr. Lee. At this 823 Kestaurant.
The Chairman. Did you know that at that time or did you know
at the second meeting that Mr. Golos was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mv. Lee. I at no time — at no time did I know that until I was so
informed several years later.
The Chairman. At these two meetings at which JNIr. Golos and Miss
Bentley were present, what was the purpose of the meeting, and what
did you discuss, generally ?
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, I cannot recall what the precise topics of discus-
sion were ; it was entirely a social meeting.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Lee. And we talked about whatever was being talked about at
the time.
The Chairman. Then, when you later discovered that Mr. Golos
was a Comnumist. did you know Miss Bentley at that time, or were
you having contacts with Miss Bentley at that time?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I had learned Mr. Golos was a Communist" and
IMiss Bentley was at the time I was asked to testify in New York a
year ago.
The Chahjman. Those are all the questions I have. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Heisert. INIr. Lcc
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 741
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
^Ir. Hebert. Tell us again when was the first time that you met
JNIiss Bentley, where, and on what occasion?
Mr. Lee. My recollection is that it Avas after I got back from the
Par East in 19-'U, which would put — excuse me, in 19i3, which would
l)ut it in October.
Mr. Hebert. Of 1943?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert, Where did you meet her ?
]Mr. Lee. At the apartment of Mary Price.
Mr. Hebert. Where is Mary Price's apartment?
Mr. Lee. It is at, I believe — between Twentieth and Twenty-first,
on Ej'e.
Mr. Hebert. In Washinoton ?
]Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. The location was given a short time ago.
]Mr. Hebert. Didn't Miss Price live alone ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. What was the occasion of your meeting with Miss
Bentley ?
Mv. Lee. We were just asked to drop in for drinks, as I recall.
^Nlr. Hebert. ]Miss Price asked vou and your wife to drop in for
drinks?
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. I believe there were several other people present.
]\Ir. Hebert. Name some of the people present.
Mr. Lee. I do not recall who they were, sir.
]Mr. Hebert. You realize that is important?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; but it is also 5 years ago.
Mr. Hebert. But you do realize it is important for the sake of
veracity right now.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir, if I knew I was going to be questioned about it
5 jears later, I would probablj^ have made a memorandum, but there
was no reason to think so.
]\f r. Hebert. You were a member of the OSS, were you not ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And the OSS is quite steeped in caution and suspicion,
is it not? I would say oversteeped in caution and suspicion.
Mr. Lee. OSS tried always to be cautious, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you try to be cautious?
]Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And out of all of these people — how many people were
present in Mary Price's apartment?
Mr. Lee. I can not recall, sir ; maybe two, maybe three.
ISIr. Hebert. You mean to tell me that a man in OSS, even 5 years
later, 10 years later, or 20 years later, on an occasion like this, which
is so memorable, cannot tell me whether two, three, four, or five people
were present in Mary Price's apartment when you met Miss Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I am afraid I will have to say that, yes.
Mr. Hebert. Definitely Mary Price could say whether or not you
met Miss Bentley there?
yiv. Lee. I assume she could.
3,Ir. Hebert. Your wife could say whether she met Miss Bentley on
that occasion?
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir.
]Mr. Hebert. And nobodv else ?
742 CdMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Well, there probabh- are otl\er people, sir, but I do not
know who they are now,
i\Ir. Hebert. Nobody else in that gathering of intellect impressed
you as JNIiss Bentley did?
Mr. Lee. No, sirl
Mr. Hebert. She was an outstanding woman in that crowd?
Mr. Lee. She seemed to be ; yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And that is why she so impressed you?
Mr. Lee. She talked to us most of the time, as I recall.
Mr. Hebert. And if there had been anybody there of equal intellect
or of attractiveness, you certainly^ would have remembered it.
Mr. Lee. Well, nobody else was there of equal intellect or otherwise,
Congressman, who appeared to find us attractive enough to follow us
up in the Avay Miss Bentley did.
Mr. Hebert. Now, looking back in retrospect, you think Miss
Bentley had a purpose in following you up?
Mr. Lee. That may be, sir.
Mr. Hebert. What do you think ?
Mr. Lee. I am frankly completely bewildered. Congressman, by
Miss Bentley's testimony. I know one thing, that from her testimony
of today she has an extremely vivid imagination. As to how far her
description of activity is true, I really cannot say. I know they are
not true as far as I am concerned.
]Mr. HioBERT. Then I will ask you the same question I asked Miss
Bentley. You have both told diametrically opposed stories, and one
of you is lying.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You are not?
Mr. Lee. Th;-t is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Now, jou say Miss Bentley called your apartment,
and your wife said that you should go down to meet her in a drug
store.
Mr. Lee. Well, I do not think I consulted my wife on that point.
Miss Bentley had called the apartment after we had made it clear
she was not to be seen by us any more, and after we had very re-
luctantly agreed that we would meet her in public occasionally.
Ml-. Hebert. I think the testimony will show that wdien you origi-
nally testified this morning you said that Miss Bentley called, and
probably your wife did not have a sitter or could not go down,
jind she told you to go down and see Miss Bentle}' and get rid of her
just as quickly as you could.
Mr. Lee. That "is right.
Mr. Hebert. That is not what 5'ou now said.
Mr. Lee. You asked if I was given permission.
Mr. Hebert. Let us not banter Avith Avords. You know what I mean.
Mr. Lee. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Tell me what happened.
Mr. Lee. Just as I say, Congressman, Miss Bentley called and asked
if I could meet her. My wife said in elfect, "I don't want to go," or
"I can't go. and you go down and get rid of her."
Mr. Hebert. So, she told you to go down to the drug store and get
rid of her.
jNIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 743
Mr. Hebert. Yoli are an old OSS man, steeped in suspicion and
caution, you had your uniform on. You did not want to see Miss-
Bentley because you were afraid of her communistic leanings.
Mr, Lee. No, sir ; that is not why I did not want to see Miss Bentley.
Mr. Hebert. Wh}^ did you not want to see her?
Mr. Lee. Because she was a j^ersonal nuisance to me.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you say that you could not agree with her left-
wing leanings?
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir. That was a very minor factor.
^Ir. Hebert, You. an OSS man, say it was a minor factor that you
were associating with an outspoken Communist?
JMr, Lee. I do not know she was a Communist; I thought her views
were too far to the left.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you described in detail about some of the discus-
sions you had about the second front, the German-Russian pact.
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir,
ISIr, Hebert. You just did not pass that off en passant. You dis-
cussed that at length.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You know what her feelings were?
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir.
Mr, Hebert. You knew she was extremely to the left?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir,
Mr, Hebert, You knew she was extremely pro-Soviet?
Mr, Lee. Yes. sir. A great many people were at that time,
Mr, Hebert. Then, you, as an OSS man, consider that as a minor
thing?
Mr, Lee, I did not consider that it proved tliat she was a member
of the Communist Part3^ and certainly did not consider that it proved
she was a Russian spy,
Mr, Hebert. But you say, you did not want to see her any more
on account of these leanings, and on account of the personal aspect,
Mr, Lee, As I say, this was a minor reason. In fact, the major
reason was that she was a personal nuisance to us. and we did not
want to see her.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, the fact of her leftist leanings had
really no importance at all.
Mr. Lee. If she had not been a personal nuisance to us, and I had
no i-eason to suppose she Avas actually a member of the Communist
Party, I imagine Ave would have continued to see her.
Mr, Hebert. Then, it did not have anything to do with her rela-
tionship?
Mr. Lee. It was an element.
Mr. Hebert. A very minor element. Did you not testify this morn-
ing that you did not want to be seen in public Avith her?
Mr. Lee. As I say, sir, that was a very minor element. The only
problem here. Congressman, is the degree of importance that these
two motives had. I tried to make it as clear as possible.
Mr. Hebert. But a'ou did testify you did not want to be seen in
public with her.
Mr. Lee. I do not think I said that, sir, I said I thought it was a
possible source of embarrassment to have as a knoAvn friend of ours
someone who was now talking as left-Aving as Miss Bentley was.
744 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Repeat that so I can get it clear. I am a little dull.
I want you to repeat what you just said.
Mr. Lee. What I believe I said, sir, was that I considered it a possible
source of embarrassment in my position to have as a friend someone
who was as outspokenly left-wing as Miss Bentley had by then become.
Mr. Hebert. That is what I thought you said.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. HEiiERT. But yet, in the same breath, you tell us that that was a
minor consideration.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; because I had no reason to suppose that she was
a member of the Communist Party, and certainly no reason to suppose
that she was seeking information for the Communist Party.
Mr. Hebert. But you did think it woukl be embarrassing to be seen
with Miss Bentley because of her communistic leanings.
Mr. Lee. I thouglit it might be.
Mr. Hebert. And yet you met her in a public place.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Was that the last time you met her ?
Mr. Lee. The last time I met her was in a drug store in Georgetown ;
yes, sir ; to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Hebert. After the phone call to your residence, and when your
wife told you to get rid of her, your wife told you to go out and get
rid of her
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. You never saw her after that ?
Mr. Lee. Not until yesterday.
Mr. Hebert. Not until yesterday. She never called your home
iigain ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. She never in your estimation annoyed you any more ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Never attempted to contact you ?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Hebert. When was that now ?
Mr. Lee. This was at the very end of 1944 or early January 1945. I
could not be exact about that.
Mr. Hebert. But all of this matter which was being discussed now
is something that you did not come into knowledge of when this hear-
ing opened, is it?
Mr. Lee. How is that, sir?
Mr. Hebert. This matter that we are discussing now, this is not
your first knowledge of it Avhen these hearings opened ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I was questioned nbout it a year ago.
Mr. Hebert. What was the occasion of that ?
Mr. Lee. I was questioned on one occasion by two agents of the FBI,
and somewhat later last summer I was questioned by the grand jury in
New York.
Mr. Hebert. In this same connection ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Now, you say ^liss Bentley was a very emotional
person and created a scene in your home.
Mr. Lee. She did on that occasion ; yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 745
Mr. PIebert. Did it occur to a man of your intelligence that she
might create a scene in a public place such as a drug store if you went
out to see her ?
Mr. Lee. I hoped I could avoid having her do that. I want to make
clear one thing, sir, that, though we wanted to end this relationship
with Miss Bentley, we had been fond of her, and we wanted to do it so
that it would not hurt her — to do it in a way that would hurt her a&
little as possible. We were not motivated entirely by a fear that she
would create a scene. We simply wanted to take her oS our list of
acquaintances.
Mr. Hebert. Now, when you were questioned previously on this
matter, were the same facts or the alleged facts presented to you as
charges by INIiss Bentley against you?
Mr. Lee. Miss Bentley Avas not present when I was questioned pre-
viously, sir, and I am not sure just how far I should testify.
Mr. Hebert. I am not asking 3'ou to do that. I recognize that.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. As far as the grand jury is concerned, as far as the
FBI is concerned, you are free to say anything you told. AVas Miss
Bentley's name projected into your questioning before this date I
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. How long ago ?
Mr. Lee. About a year ago.
Mr. Hebert. Then, for 1 year you have had the knowledge that you
have been charged by Miss JBentley or others ; certainly you have had
the knowledge, that you have been under suspicion to the degree that
you have been questioned.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. In connection with A^our activities during the Avar.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Noav, this Eussian society of — Avhat do you call it^
that business that you Avere counsel of I
Mr. Lee. Russian War Relief.
Mr. Hebert. Yes. What kind of a society or an organization Avas
it?
Mr. Lee. It Avas a private relief organization.
Mr. Hebert. Who sponsored it ?
Mr. Lee. A great many people. I can submit for the committee,
if it does not already have the information, the m?mbers of its board
of directors and sponsors, and so on. I do not have that information
Avith me. I can merely say this, that they Avere, to the best of my
knoAAdedge, all extremely respectable conservative people.
Mr. Hebert. What Avas the purpose of that organization ?
Mr. Lee. To raise money for Russia.
Mr. Hebert. Then, to raise money for Russia
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. Russia Avas at that time carrying, I think, most
people felt, the brunt of the Avar. This Avas in 1941 and 1942. A great
deal of money Avas raised for Russia.
Mr. Hebert. And how Avas that money expended?
Mr. Lee. Sir, I do not think that is something that I am in a posi-
tion to testify to.
Mr. Hebert. AVell, during your services in the high executive posi-
tion
746 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. I would merely say this, that there were public reports
made to the Presideut's Committee on Relief Organizations and other
comjjetent authorities, and those reports are available.
Mr. Hebert. This was in 1941 or 1942 that you were associated
with them ? Well, the early part of the war.
Mr. Lee. I think it was organized in 1941. Congressman, and I
continued my association until I left New York in 1942.
Mr. Hebert. In your duties then you came in contact with many
JRussian peojDle, undoubtedly.
iNIr. Lee. Not very much ; no, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You did not ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Did you come in contact vcith any Communists?
Mr. Lee. I would not know, sir. Most, of the people I came in
contact with were either Wall Street bankers or Wall Street lawyers.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hebert. That would be in your general duty. I mean in your
duties as an executive of the Russian society.
Mr. Lee. Well, those are the people I dealt with, sir; those were
the members of the board and the top executive officers.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you did not come in contact with people who
were — and mind you I do not cast any aspersion on the Russian who
wants to be a Communist if he wants to be that ; that is his business —
but you did not come in contact Avith any of these Communists, these
official representatives of the Russian Government who ipso facto
have to be Communists?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You never came in contact
Mr. Lee. I w^as invited during the time I was on that board once
to a leception in the Russian Embassy in Washington, as was every
member of the board. I did not attend that since I was in New Yoi-k.
Ml'. Hebert. But after you got into the OSS, were you not in-
structed in the ways and means of sort of recognizing Communists
or s])ys or espionage agents, or w^as that not in your field ?
Mr. Lee. I w^as doing administrative or legal work, sir. I was not
an agent in that field, and had nothing to do with operations until
considerably later.
Mr. Hebert. But you came in contact with a great many individuals
in OSS who were well schooled in that art.
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. And there was careful
Mr. Hebert. From 1 eing exposed to contact with them, didn't you
discuss Russian agents and Communists and espionage agents?
Mr. Lee. At that time, sir, we were more inclined to discuss German
agents.
jNIr. Hebert. The OSS was never suspicious of Russia even at that
time ?
INIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Tliey were suspicious?
jVFr. Lee. I would assume so.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you l:now. sir. do you not ? Didn't you discu=;s it ?
ISIr. Lee. Yes, sir; I am sure there were discussions. But I cannot
recfjll anv pai'ticular discussions.
INIr. Hebert. But you were on the qui vive all the time, were you
not?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 747
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Wh}' is it that you missed Miss Bentley, an emo-
lional woman?
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, being an emotional woman cannot strike me and
■does not now, as showing that she was a Russian espionage agent.
Mr. Hebert. Then you are surprised to find now that she was a
Russian espionage agent?
jNIr. Lee. I was surprised to find it when I first learned of it.
]Mr. Hebert. And that was the first inkling when you were first sum-
moned for questioning ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Was that the first time that you heard that Golos was
a Russian espionage agent?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
iVIr. Hebert. You say you are not now and have never been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You heard Miss Bentley testify she collected Com-
munist Party dues from you.
Mr. Lee. I heard that; yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Is that true or not true ?
Mr. Lee. That is not true.
Mr. Hebert. You heard Miss Bentlev describe her first meeting
and going to your apartment and introducing herself as Helen, and
the first time she met you ?
IMi". Lee. I heard that, sir.
j\Ir. Hebert. Is that true ?
]Mr. Lee. That is not true.
Mr. Hebert. You knew her previously to that?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Have you ever been a member of any organization
whicli was later described as a front organization for the Communist
Party?
My. Lee. Not to the best of my knowledge, sir. I am sure I was not.
]\Ir. Hebert. Can you ascribe any reason why Miss Bentley should
tell such a fabrication, as you submit that she has told to this com-
mittee and to otlier Government authorities on different occasions,
and involve you?
Mr. Lee. I certainly cannot, sir, except for the reason I suggested
in my statement.
Mr. Hebert. Repeat it.
Mr. Lee. I will just read this paragraph, if I may :
It is har/l for me to believe that Miss Rentley's statements are those of a
rational person. In trying to recall my acquaintance with Miss Bentley I have
been puzzled that I do not remember that she ever tried to get any information
from me. In view of that fact I am tempted to believe that Miss Bentley used
her social relationship with me merely to help her misrepresent to her employers
for her own i^ersonal l)uild-up that she had access through me to someone of the
importance of General Donovan.
Mr. Hebert. Is that the only reason you can ascribe?
Mr. Lee. There may be personal spite, I do not know.
Mr. Hebert. Is there any reason for her to have personal spite
against you?
Mr. Lee. She may have been angry because we broke off the rela-
tion.ship.
748 ^ COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Is there anvbodv else other than Miss Bentley who ever
associated with 3^011 who was in espionage activities c
Mr. Lee. No, sir; so far as I know, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And now, reviewing your Avhole testimony, reviewing
the whole situation, you are prepared now under oath to say that all
of these charges, all of the statements as directed against you, are not
true?
Mr. Lee. I am prepared to say that, sir. and may I add one thing
at that point regarding some of the information that Miss B:ntley
has said that I gave. I want to say also for the record that opera-
tions of the OSS in Turkey and in the Balkans were something that I
had nothing to do with, and knew nothing about, except in the most
general way. And as far as an exchange of NKVD-OSS agents goes,
I knew generally about such a thing, but so did a great many other
people in Washington, and the whole story has been told iii' consider-
able detail in General Donovan's book.
^Ir. Hebert. Is that one particular thing, about the swapping of
the agents?
Mr. Lee. As I understand it, sir, it was not a swapping of agents,
in the first place. It was a swapping of missions.
Mr. Hebert. But Miss B?ntley described it as a swapping of
agents and Avas indefinite as to the number, and said that was discussed
with you. Was that ever discussed with you?
Mr. Lee. That was never discussed with me, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDoavell. Colonel Lee, will vou tell me the various ranks
you had in the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. The various what, sir?
Mr. McDow^ELL. Ranks, your army ranks.
Mr. Lee. First lieutenant, captain, major, and lieutenant colonel.
Mr. McDow^ELL. All four of them?
Ml-. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. All officers of your various ranks in the OSS, I
presume, were given schooling and a briefing in the methods and the
operation of the OSS.
Mr. Lee. It W'Ould depend on what the job was, sir. There was
special training for different types of jobs. As I say, my job was at
all times administrative.
Mr. McDowell. Well, in your administrative jobs — understand. I
am making no effort at all to pry into the secrets of the OSS
Mr. Lee. Right, sir.
Mr. McDowell. But I do not w^ant you to answ^er any of those.
In your various administrative jobs, you would have other officers,
and perhaps, other men under your command?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever make any effort to assure yourself
that these people were cautious and fearful of the various secret
material that would pass over your desk and would be within your
jurisdiction?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. The OSS, as every agency of its sort during
the war, had very strict security procedures relating to the handling
of classified material, when they should be disclosed, and so forth, and
there was generally A'ery clear and very thorough security instructions.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 749
Mr. McDoAVELL. Colonel, would you, in your various ranks up to
lieutenant colonel, ever make any effort to assure yourself of the people
under you and whom they associated with ?
Mr. Lee. That was the responsibility, sir, of the Security Office
of OSS. I did not make a personal effort to find out who every indi-
vidual I associated — who might have served under me was associating
with in private life : no, sir.
Mr. McDowell, Would it be your responsibility?
Mr, Lee, It was not my responsibility.
Mr. McDow^ell. Now, 5 years after all of this, does it not occur
to you that it was strange, very strange, that a now known Soviet
spy, recognized espionage agent, had at least two meetings with you
at odd places, restaurants, while 3'ou were a responsible officer of the
hush-hush organization ?
Mr. Lee, Xo, sir ; it does not seem to me strange under the circum-
stances that I have given,
Mr, McDowell, This Golos, it appears, was a highly important
Soviet agent,
Mr, Lee, So I am given to understand, sir.
Mr, McDowell, Do you believe he was ?
JNIr, Lee, I know nothing, sir, except what I have read in the news-
pai)ers, I certainly would not have gotten that impression from
meeting him. He was, on the whole, a very colorless character, and,
iis I say, very ill.
Mr. McDowell, Would his conversation with you at these various
restaurants verge into politics, left-wing affairs, Soviet affairs?
Mr, Lee. I do not recall that they did ; no.
]\Ir. McDowell. Never discussed any second front or anything of
that kind?
Mr. Lee. He may have touched on it. That was being discussed
all tlie time, but only in the way anyone would have discussed it,
]Mr. McDowell. I think it would not violate any important secrets
if you would answer this. In the ranks of lieutenant colonel and
major and captain and first lieutenant, you were not required to indi-
cate to some person, some superior, some security officer, whom you
are associated with
]\Ir. Lee. We were never — so far as I know, no one was ever required
to give a list of every acquaintance he had. Of course, everyone who
had the reason to suppose that he was seeing or had an acquaintance
witli a suspicious person was under the duty to report it. That goes
without saying, sir.
Mr. McDowell.. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, here, for, I believe,
the first time since the conspiracy of Aaron Burr, a high officer of
the Army has been accused publicly of the violation of the Articles
of War, which he must certainly realize the penalties of and the pun-
ishment. The questions which are flooding my mind at this moment,
I feel, should not be given here, I have no further questions now.
The Chairmax, Mr, Mundt,
Mr. Mundt, As I remember correctly, Mr, Lee, you said that you
had first met Miss Bentley in the home of Mary Price. .
Mr, Lee, Yes, sir,
Mr. Mundt, In October of 1943.
Mr. Lee, To the best of my recollection that is the date, I am
positive about the year.
750 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. You are positive about the year?
Mr. Lee. I am positive about the year and about the place.
Mr. Mi'NDT. It might be a discrepancy of a month or two?
Mr. Lee. Oh, certainly, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. How long after you first met Miss Bentley did you
first meet Mr. Golos ?
Mr. Lee. I think it was 6 to 8 weeks afterward. I cannot — it was
early in our acquaintance; I know that. I cannot say positively.
Mr. MuNDT. Six or eight weeks ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. iNlt NOT. How long after your first meeting with Mr. Golos did
you meet Mr. Golos for the second time?
Mr. Lee. It was some weeks later. I do not remember how long^
Mr. MuNDT. Approximately how long?
Mr. Lee. I am afraid I do not recall that, Congressman.
Mr. MuxDT. You must have some idea.
Mr. Lee. Well, I would say i or 5 weeks, maybe. It was whenever
I Avas in New York next and called Miss Bentley.
Mr. MuNDT. When did Mr. Golos die, Mr. Stripling?
ISIr. Stripling. November 1948.
Mr. MuNDT. NoM% you have testified that you met him first — that
you met Miss Bentley first in October 1943, and that 6 or 8 weeks later,
which would be so)netime in November or December 1943, you met
Golos for the first time, and a month or so later, which would take us
at least 2 months beyond the time of his death, you met him the second
time. How do you explain that discrepancy?
Mr. Lee. That was to the best of my recollection, sir. As I say, this
was 5 years ago, and I cannot be positive of these dates.
Mr. MuNDT. You realize that if you first met Miss Bentley in Octo-
ber 1943, as I say you say you did, then your story is not correct as
to the meeting of Mr. Golos.
Mv. Lee. If he died in November, I realize that there certainly is
a discrepancy there. Maybe I met Miss Bentley before that! I
thought it was in October, directly after I came back from the Far
East.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the date which we might be able to substantiate,
} ou believe, by talking to Mary Price.
Mr. Lee. Well, the reason I remember the date is I thought it was
f.fter my trip to the Far East.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. I am sorry ; I did not get the answer.
Mr, Lee. Excuse me, sir. I say the reason I have given the date is
on account of the fact that I believe it was directly after my trip to
the Far P^ast. I do not recall having met Miss Bentley before that.
Mr. Mfndt. Were you on official business at that time so that, per-
Invps, some voucher that you put in for an expense trip to New York
iniglit indicate the exact time of your meeting with Miss Bentley?
Mr. I^EE. It is possible, sir. 1 made a great many trips to New
York.
Mi-. Mi^xDT. Were you on an official business trip to New York at
tliat time?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I am quite sure I was.
Mr. MuNDT. To Avhom did you submit your travel vouchers for re-
imbursement for pay?
COAIAIUNIST ESPIONAGE 751
Mr. Lee. I am trying to recall now just what the procedures were.
Jt lias been some time since I did that. To the finance officer in OSS.
Mr. MrxDT. Could that be made a matter of public record as to the
\ouchers that you submitted for pay during 194-3 to the finance officer
of OSS?
Mr. Lee. I assume it could be. sir.
Mr. MuxDT. We would have your i)ermission to check the records?'
Mr. Lee. Oh, certainly, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. The Goyernment's permission
Mr. Lee. Certainly, sir.
Mv. Hebert. ]May I interpose and say that we may not be able to get
the Goyernment's permission?
Mr. MrxDT. I understand that the Ferguson committee has run into
an iron curtain, and we may. too. so I want to know if the witness is
'- -illing to giye us his permission, so that if we cannot get the record
I'.ecause of the willful obstinancy on the part of the administration,
it will be that, and not because of failing to get the permission of the-
witness.
You realize, of course, that that is a vevj important link in this
testimony, because of the death of Mr. Golos in November of 1943,
which should be a matter of record, there should be a matter of record
;is to whether or not — you should be able to substantiate whether or
I'ot you met her in October 1943.
Mr. Lee. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, we know that he died in November 1943. Does,
that help you refresh 3'our memory, to change your testimony in any
connection with what you have said about Mr. Golos?
]Mr. Lee. All I can say, Mr. Congressman, after 5 years, to the best
of my recollection, when asked, it was in October. Now, I am per-
lectly prepared to admit that my recollection could be faulty, and
tiiat I met Miss Bentley several months before.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you testified that among the organizations to
which you belonged in New York was the Institute of Pacific Rela-
tions.
Mr. Lee. Not when I was in New York, sir. I did not join the
Institute of Pacific Relations until 1946.
Mr. MuxDT. Are 3^011 present!}' a member of the Institute of Pacific
Relations ?
Mr. Lee. I am, sir; y«s.
INIr. MuxDT. Is that the organization of which Mr. Edward C.
Carter is the president?
]\Ir. Lee. Yes, sir; I think he is called the executive secretary.
]Mr. MuNDT. Executive secretary.
Mr. Lee. At least, he is the head of it.
Mr. Mux^DT. That is correct. Are you reasonablj- familiar witk
the members of the board of directors of the Institute of Pacific
Relations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I am not. I became a member of the Institute of
Pacific Relations principally to subscribe to the research studies and
other literature which they put out. I take no active organizational
part.
]Mr. MrxDT. But you ha^-e known Edwavcl C. Carter?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; personally.
Mr. MuxDT. Do you know Mr. Frederick V. Field?
752 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. No, sir ; I have never met Mr. Field.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether he is a member of the board of
clii'ectors of the Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Lee. I seem to recall that I have heard tliat he is, but I am not
sure.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know that Mr. Frederick V. Field is a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Lee. I do not know Mr. Field, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. That was not my question.
Mr. Lee. I do not know whether he is a Communist or not, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. There is no reason to believe he is a Communist?
Mr. Lee. I know practically nothing about Mr. Field, except that
I have heard his name. That is all,
Mr. MuNDT. I have just one final question, which to me is the part
of your testimony which I wish you could tie together, at least, to
i.etter satisfaction, as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Tliat is the fact that certainly your whole sequence of
experience with Miss Bentley nuist, to a young man of your intelli-
gence, have seemed unusual by the time that you desired, on consulta-
tion with your wife, to terminate it.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. It is not the normal kind of sequence of friendship
which the average person has.
Mr, Lee, No, sir ; I hope I never make another friendship like it.
Mr. MuNDT, Eight.
Mr, Lee, It was unusual, sir, in a personal sense. I can merely re-
peat again that there was nothing in my acquaintance with Miss
Bentley to lead me to suppose that she was a Russian or a Communist
agent.
Mr. MuNDT. But you did testify that there were many indications
that led you to believe, near the time that you terminated your friend-
ship, that she was pro-Communist; she was talking the Communist
line, about various incidents that you described, the specific items
which led you to distrust her.
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir, that is true. But a great many people have held
such views without, so far as I know% being concerned with any such
activity as Miss Bentley claims she is concerned with.
Mr. MuNDT. But none of them had persistently endeavored to im-
pose themselves upon you, and to associate with you ?
Mr, Lee. No, that is true.
Mr. MuNDT. But in view of all of that, you still insist that you
never discussed this whole sequence in any way, shape, or form with
any of your superior officers ?
Mr, Lee. I certainly do,
Mr. MuNDT. Wliy not ?
Mr. Lee. What is that, sir ?
Mr. MuNDT. With any of your superior officers ?
Mr. Lee, No, sir, I did not because I thought there was nothing, as
far as I knew — there was nothing that would justify reportiug Miss
Bentley, As far as I was concerned, she was a neurotic friend which
presented a personal probl^em, and there was no occasion to make any
such report, I have known various friends of mine who have lefter
views than mine. It would never occur to me
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 753
Mr. MuNDT. You had other friends at that time whom you felt
might be Communists, who were seeking to impose themselves upon
you?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. INIuNDT. She was the only one ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. But still you made no mention of that?
]\Ir. Lee. I assumed she was seeking to impose herself upon us for
personal reasons.
Mr. INIuNDT. It did not occur to you that the fact that she was so pro-
Communist had anything to do with it ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe that anyone who has talked to Miss Bentley
would get the impression that she could be engaged in any such activity.
Mr. INIuNDT. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? Mr. Lee, what
is your attitude toward the Soviet Union as of this moment?
Mr. Lee. Well, frankly, sir, I don't like a great deal about the
Soviet Union. I do not like its political system, and I do not like its
conduct in foreign affairs.
Mr. Hebert. Have you ever criticized the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; many times.
Mr. Mtjndt. Then, in the event of a war, whom would you be loyal
to, America or tlie Soviet Union ?
Mr. Lee. America, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any more questions ?
Mr. McDowell. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman, but in
view of the testimony which has been given here today, and in the last
several days, it strikes at the very heart of America, its security. It
has finally gotten into the United States Army. Now, despite the
lack of success this committee has had in getting vitally important in-
formation from the executive branch of the Government, and despite
the lack of success the Senate committee has experienced, I think once
again that we should appeal to the executive branch of the Govern-
ment to supply us with that material which we need to further this
investigation; and I think that the chief investigator should be in-
structed to once again appeal to those agencies of the Government that
can give us information which will aid in solving this conspiracy that
undoubtedly has, and did, fasten itself on our Government. I am
going to continue making that demand just so long as these hearings
go on, and if the demand is not met with so far as this committee is
concerned, which has furnished some 22,000 times information to
the executive branch of the Government, those responsible for the
refusal must face the wrath of the American people.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to say right at that point
that this committee will seek information from various agencies of
the Government in the next few weeks in the course of these hear-
ings, and in the course of other hearings, and there will be no question
but that we will not hesitate to seek the information. We will go
after the information, all right, and we have a lot of information that
we would like to get, and we will not hesitate to request it.
Mr. Hebert. In connection with what has been said by you and
Mr. McDowell, let me make this point, which I think is most im-
80408—48 17
754 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
portant at this time. That forgetting whatever else has been de-
veloped at these hearings, forgetting the implications of this far-flung
espionage ring which exists, there is no doubt in anybody's mind, and
forgetting whether we have been able to adduce the facts and the truth
in connection with them, there is one thing that is self-evident, and
that is the fact that a crime or a violation, a criminal violation, of the
law has been committeed before this committee. These hearings are
filled with perjured testimony. There can be no doubt about it.
Witnesses have made diametrically opposed statements under oath
which, of necessity, makes one a perjured witness, and in furtherance
of your opening statement when these hearings started, that this mat-
ter was going to be turned over to the Department of Justice, and
asked to be placed before a grand jury for full investigation, there is
one fact that the Department of Justice cannot escape, that is, that
perjury has been committed here, and it is entirely their responsibility,
and they cannot evade it, that when their attention is called to this
matter, there must be prosecution for perjury on the part of the De-
partment of Justice as to these witnesses.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate myself with
the statements just made by Mr. Hebert, and to point out one further
fact, that in the interest of justice, that is all this committee is inter-
ested in, and in the interests of national security, that primarily at
this point in the interest of justice, either some very innocent-sounding
people are guilty of some very infamous crimes, or else some innocent
people have been injured by some highly infamous testimony ; and I
think that the executive agency owes it to the public, just as this
committee owes it to the public, to try to get at the facts and see which
of the two horns of that dilemma is accurate. The only way it can
be done is to have cooperation instead of stubborn, obstinate conceal-
ment by the executive agency, and I hope we will press for that kind
of cooperation and insist that this thing be tried out to the final, last
element of truth.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Mundt, I agree with you, but I do press the point,
that regardless of the excuses given for not furnishing us with in-
formation, which we rightly and justly deserve, in connection -with
justice, and that is all I am interested in, I frankly tell you I do not
know who is a liar and who is not a liar, but I am going to find out,
and I want to find out. I hold no brief for either side except in the
integrity of this committee, and in the integrity of any congressional
committee, and forgetting any excuse or lack of desire on the part of
Government officials to prosecute, they cannot escape the fact that
perjury has been committed before this committee; and I, for one,
insist and demand that the Department of Justice take steps to pros-
ecute the guilty individual or individuals who have committed perjury
before a congressional committee.
Mr. MuNDT. I agree 100 percent.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Lee.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRMAX. I want to get back to the meeting at the Price
apartment in, I think you said it was, October 1943.
.Mr. Lee. That was my recollection, sir.
The Chairman. Who contacted you, who invited you to that
meeting ?
Mr. Lee. Miss Price,
I COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 755
The Chairman. Miss Price did?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, would you let the record show that
this is a subcommittee sitting?
The Chairman. The record already shows that.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
The Chairman. Was Mr. Golos present at that meeting?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I am quite sure I met Mr. Golos later.
The Chairman. The only ones that you can recall are Miss Bentley
and Miss Price.
Mr. Lee. And my wife was there.
The Chairman. And your wife.
Mr. Lee. And my impression is that there were several other people.
The Chairman. Your impression is that thei-e were several other
people.
Mr. Lee. Yes, two or three other people were probably there, too.
The Chairman. You cannot recall the names of one of those other
persons ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I cannot.
Mi\ ^NIuNDT. Were there any other men there? You were at a
meeting entirely surrounded by women?
Mr. Lee. Well, I do not have the recollection, Mr. Mundt, that there
Avas. I think probably if there were I probably woidd have noticed it.
Mr. Mundt. You probably would have recalled if you were the only
man there.
Mr. Lee. Well, I might. I just do not remember.
The Chairman. Was that meeting at the apartment during the
da.ytime or in the evening?
Mr. Lee. I believe it was in the evening, sir.
The Chairman. What was the reason for the meeting?
Mr. Lee. We were asked to drop in for drinks, as I recall it.
The Chairman. You know, if you could recall the name of one other
person, it would helj) you.
Mr. Lee. I have tried to. sir. and I cannot.
The Chairman. Can't jonr wife recall the name of any other
people ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe so, sir.
The Chairman. But 3^011 seem to be so clear about all these other
meetings, and so foggy about this one.
Mr. Lee. Well, this was the furthest back, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, did you ever furnish any information, oral
or written, to Mary Price?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At no time ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you meet Mary Price first ?
Mr. Lee. I met her in New York at our apartment, where her sister
Mildred brought her, I think, in 1940.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know her very well ?
Mr. Lee. We got to know her quite well ; yes.
ISIr. Stripling. You never at any time gave her any information ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
jSlr. Stripling. Was she a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. I do not know, sir.
756 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. We]], liow often did you see Mary Price ?
Mr. Lee. Weli. we only really remained friends of Mary Price's
Av]ien we came to Wasliington and knew very few people.
Mr. Stripling. How many times would you saj^ that you saw Mary
Price ?
Mr. Lee. I have no idea. sir.
Mr. Stripling. Ten times ?
Mr, Lee. I sliould think at least tliat.
Mr. Stripling. Ten times. From the conversation tliat you had
witli Mary Price, would you gatlier tliat slie miglit be a Communist?
Mr. Lee. I really would not care to say, sir. I know that she had
very lilieral views, but you would not say she was a Communist.
Mr. Stripling. Did 3'ou make any effort to determine whetlier she
was a Communist?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I assumed slie was not.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat otlier friends did you have in Washington
beside Mary Price?
Mr. Lee. I had a great many friends in Washington as we stayed
tliere longer and met more people.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow" Donald X. Wheeler ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You have known him a long time ?
Mr. Lee. I have known him since 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to school together?
Mr. Lee. We first met on the boat going to England in 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Did he work in the OSS?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did he enter OSS?
Mr. Lee. I think
Mr. Stripling. OSS employment.
Mr. Lee. I thinly lie entered OSS employment, I think, in the very
beginning of the COI, wliich was tlie predecessor organization.
Mr. Stripling. Did lie precede you?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. While he was in OSS, were you closely associated
with him?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see him?
Mr. Lee. Oli, yes ; I tliought you meant in a business way.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see liim socially?
Mr. Lee. Yes; I saw him socially.
Ml'. Stripling. Where is he now?
Mr. Lee. He is on the west coast, in Washington, I believe. I thinlc
lie lias bought a farm there.
Mr. Stripling. Is Don Wlieeler a memlier of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe so, sir, but I do not know.
Mr. Stripling. Did your conversations Avitli him — did you ever de-
termine whetlier or not lie ]iad Communist views?
Mr. Lee. Donald Wheeler was a very argumentative individual, who
would usuaHy take tlie opposite side of whatever was the prevailing
opinion in any group, so sometimes he took left-wing views, and some-
times very conservative ones usually for tlie pleasure of arguing.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 757
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell you that he belonged to three organi-
zations which the Attorney General said were subversive organi-
zations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir ; he never did.
Mr. Stripling. He admitted, Mr. Chairman, before the Civil Serv-
ice Commission, February 12, 1942, that he was a member of the Amer-
ican League for Peace and Democracy, the Washington Committee to
Aid China, and the Washington Bookshop, all of which were Commu-
nist front organizations, and so found by the Attorney General.
Were j^ou ever active in the Washington Committee to Aid China ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. But vou were not aware that Mr. Wheeler belonged
to these Communist front organizations?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe I was. sir : no.
Mr. Stripling. You never furnished any information to Marv
Price?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. Nor to any other unauthorized person.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear of World Tourist?
]\Ir. Lee. I do not think so ; no.
Mr. Stripling. You did not know that that was an official Soviet
agency ?
Mr. Lee. As I said. I do not belieA^e I have ever heard of it.
Mr. Stripling. You did not know that Mr. Golos was connected
with it?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Is there any statement that you want to make to
the committee at this time in connection Avith the testimony that has
been received ?
]Mr. Lee. There is only one request that I have to make of the com-
mittee at this time. I would appreciate it if the committee would put
in the record of this hearing a telegram which was received, dated
August 5, from IMr. O. C. Doering, who is one of General Donovan's
officers and the executive officer of OSS, and my immediate superior.
I had hoped that I miglit know sufficiently in advance when I was
to testify so that Mr. Doering could be present. Pie has requested
an opportunity to testify, and I believe that General Donovan would
like to testify.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. You have a telegram?
Mr. Lee. I have a telegram ; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that Otto C. Doering of Chicago?
Mr. Lee. He lived in Chicago at one time — from Wisconsin.
Mr, MuNDT. Is that the Mr. Doering who used to be with Sears,
Eoebuck ?
JNIr. Lee. Well, that may be his father. This Mr. Doering lias
been
Mr. MuNDT. I know an Otto C. Doering who was vice president at
one time of Sears, Roebuck.
Mr. Lee. That is the name, sir. and this is Otto C. Doering, Jr.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee. when the telegram Avas received I talked
to you about it, did I not ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
758 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did I not suggest to you to have Mr. Doering come
here ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And sit with you or not as your counsel ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I explained, sir, that Mr. Doering was in Wis-
consin and I would try to get him heie if I could be told sufficiently
in advance.
Mr. Stripling. But we suggested that you bring him here.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; but not without a date certain having been set.
You may recall, Mr. Stripling, that I also wrote the committee asking,
if possible, to be given 48 hours notice so that I could get Mr. Doering
here.
Mr. Stripling. Well, you had, I believe, 4 days after you were sub-
penaed to appear.
Mr. Lee. No ; I talked with you, Mr. Stripling, and you said that on
9 : 30 Monday morning you would tell me when to appear.
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Lee. On 9 : 30 INIonday morning. I believe, I was told to appear
at 2 o'clock, and then it was far too late to get Mr. Doering present.
Mr. Stripling. But you were subpenaed to appear on Thursday of
last week.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And you appear now on Tuesday. I mean, you
had sufficient time to get Mr. Doering here.
Mr. Lee. For all I know, Mr. Stripling, I might not have been heard
for weeks.
Mr. Stripling. But you did not bring ]Mr. Doering here.
The Chairman. Well, I think that is a little beside the point.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, I agree; but I want the record to show that
I suggested that he bring Mr. Doering here and sit with him and act
as his counsel.
The Chairman. Would you like that in the record ?
Mr. Lee. I would like it in the record, and I would like to say what
Mr. Stripling has said — Mr. Doering is on vacation, and I tlid not
want to ask him to come here until a date certain had been fixed, and
no date certain has been fixed for him to be present.
Mr. MuNDT. Is this telegram in response to a communication that
you made to Mr. Doering?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I informed Mr. Doering on the telephone of
what had happened.
Mr. MuNDT. You talked with him on the telephone ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And it is after that telepho'iie call that he sent you this
wire ?
Mr. Lee. That is right. He did not send it to me. He sent it to the
chairman.
The Chairman. Without objection it will be placed in the record at
this point.
(The telegram referred to reads as follows :)
Washington, D. C, August 5, 19^8.
Hon. .T. Parnkll Thomas,
Chairman, House Un-American Affairs Committee,
Old House Office Building, Washington. D. C:
While on vacation in north Wisconsin I have just seen newspaper accounts
regarding Duncan Lee. As former executive officer of OSS I vrould be glad to
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 759
testify before your committee regarding Lee. I want to say now that I knew
his work during the war and I completely belieA'e in his loyalty to the OSS and
to his country. I have absolute faith In his innocence of the charges made
against liim by Elizabeth Bentley.
O. C. DOERING,
Care of Donovan, Leisure, Netvton, Lomhard d Irvine, Washington, D. C.
INIr. Hebeut. Where is Mary Price today?
INIr. Lee. I do not know, sir. I saw somewhere in the newspapers
where she was in North Carolina.
]\Ir. Hebert. Is that the same Mary Price who was organizing the
Wallace- for-President group down there?
Mr. Lee. I assume so, sir.
Mr. Hep^ert. And Mr. Wallace has been backed, or rather has been
taken in completely by the Communist Part}^ ?
Mr. Lee. Is that a question, sir?
Mr. Heber'^v I will make that as a statement. I will not ask you
that. I just wanted to establish that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think that is well established, and you do not have
to reestablish it.
]Mr. Hebert. I just want to establish that the same Mary Price —
if it is the same individual
Mr. Stripling. It is.
Mr. Hebert. It is the same individual ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr, Hebert. And INIr. Lee knew Miss Price and failed to recognize
in her her Communist leanings and tendencies.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions ?
Mr. Stripling. No.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Lee.
Mr. Lee. Thank you.
The Chairman. The next witness will be who? Mr. Robert T.
Miller III, and we will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 05 p. m., the subcommittee recessed until 2 p. m.
this day, at which time the subcommittee merged into the full com-
mittee.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p. m., in the caucus room,
Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, and
F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E, Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wlieeler, investigators ; Benjamin Mandel,
director of research ; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mr. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas, a quorum of the
full committee.
INIr. Stripling, the first witness.
' Mr. Stripling. William Ludwig Ullmann.
The Chairman. Mr. Ullmann, will you take the stand. Raise your
right hand.
Mr. Ullmann, do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
The Chair would like to announce that subpenas were served on
Mikhail Samarin and ItIs wife at 11 : 55 this morning.
Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM LUDWIG ULLMANN
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your full name, please.
Mr. Ullmann. William Ludwig Ullmann.
• Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born, Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Ullmann. I was born in Springfield, Mo., 1908. I would like
to submit a statement, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. ^Vlio is your counsel ?
Mr. Ullmann. Mr. Rein.
761
762 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify yourself?
Mr. Rein. My name is David Rein.
Mr. Stripling. And your address in Washington?
Mr. Rein. 1105 K Street.
Mr. Stripling. You say you have a statement?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before any action is taken on the
statement, I would like to ask the witness certain preliminary ques-
tions.
The Chairman, Without objection it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, would j^ou outline to the committee
any Federal employment you have had.
Mr. Ullmann. Yes ; I came to work for the Government first in 1935
in the spring. I worked with the NRA, the National Recovery Ad-
ministration.
Mr. Stripling. The year 1935 ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain there ?
Mr. Ullmann. I worked there for only a few months, until mid-
summer, when the Supreme Court decision came out regarding NRA.
Then I went to work for the Resettlement Administration.
Mr. Stripling. When did you go with Resettlement ?
Mr. Ullmann. In either June or July of 19P>5. I stayed with the
Resettlement Administration until February 1939.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go then ?
Mr. Ullmann. From the Resettlement Administration I trans-
ferred to the Treasury Department, where I stayed until I resigned
from the Federal Government in 1947, in March, with the exception
of a period that I was on military leave and was in the Army.
Mr. Stripling. What branch of the Treasury were you employed
in?
Mr. Ullmann. I was employed in the Division of Monetary Re-
search.
Mr. Stripling. From whom did you obtain your employment?
Mr. Ullman. I applied for a position to Mr. Harr}^ White.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Dexter White?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall who you gave as references when you
applied for that position?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall : no, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you give Lauchlin Currie as a reference ?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You say you took leave of absence ?
Mr. Ullmann. Military leave.
Mr. Stripling. Military leave of absence. When did you take that ?
Mr. Ullmann. In October 1942 and it extended until Septembey
1945.
Mr. Stripling. What branch of the service were you in ?
Mr. Ullmann. As an enlisted man I was in the Antiaircraft. As an
officer I was in the Air Corps.
Mr. Stripling. Would you outline your military history?
Mr. Ullmann. I was drafted in October 1942, and served as an
enlisted man until January 1943, when I went to officer candidate
school. I graduated from officer candidate school in iVpril 1943 with
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 763
the commission of second lieutenant. I was assigned to Wright Field,
Materiel Command. Dayton. Ohio.
Mr. Stripling. Whatwas your assignment at Wright Field? What
were your duties there?
Mr. TjLL^irANN, I was only there for a f eAv days and then I was trans-
ferred to Washington.
JNIr. Stripling. AVliere were you stationed in Washington?
Mr. Ullmann. I was stationed at the headquarters of the Air Corps,
the ^Materiel and Service DiAdsion.
Mr. Stripling. How long did a'ou remain there ?
Mv. Ullmann. For the duration of the period I was in the Army.
Mr. Stripling. What was your highest rank?
]\Ir. Ullmann. Major.
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Army you were a major?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You were assigned to the Air Corps. Were you
stationed at the Pentagon?
Mr. Ullmann. I was stationed at the Pentagon. That was my
headquarters. I traveled occasionally.
Mr. Stripling. How old were you in 1942 ?
Mr. l^LLMANN. In 1942 I was 34.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive any deferments when you were in
this first employment?
Mr. Ullmann. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Who obtained tliose deferments for you?
Mr. Ullmann. The administrative assistant to the Secretary. If I
recall, Mr. Norman Thompson.
Mr. Stripling. How many deferments did you receive?
Mv. Ullmann. I don't recall exactly. I think two.
Mr. Stripling. Were a'ou married at the time?
Mr. Ui'LMANN. I was not.
Mr. Stripling. Are you mari-ied now ?
Mr. Ullmann. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Wlien vou resided in Washington where did you
live?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, since 1938 I lived at 5515 Thirtieth Street NW.
Mr. Stripling. Is that the home of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. ULLiMANN. Yes. I do.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you known Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
]Mr. Ullmann. Oh, I have known him since 1935, as I recall.
Mr. Stripling. Was he responsible for getting you employment
in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Ullmann. No, he wasn't. I was in the Federal Government
before he was here.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever assist you in getting any position with
the Federal Government ?
Mr. Ullmann. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Is your answer "No" or "Yes" to that question —
not, "Not that I laiow of."
Mr. Ullmann. I would say "No."
The Chairman. You would say, "No." All right.
7.64 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT, Mr. Stripling, have you ascertained his present resi-
dence ?
Mr. Stripling. No ; I was going to get to that.
. Would you state your present residence?
Mr. Ullmann. Harvey Cedars, N. J.
Mr. Stripling. Do you live with Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes; I do.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley?
• Mr. Ullmann. Well, for reasons stated in the prepared statement,
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Would you stand up, please. Do you recognize
this woman standing here as Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. You refuse to state whether you ever saw her before ?
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, he said he just refused to answer the
question. On what ground ?
Mr. Stripling. He just refused to answer.
Mr. Ullmann. On the ground that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Ullmann. For the same reason
Mr. Stripling. State your reason.
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. You mean you were a major in the Army attached
to the Air Corps and you refuse to state whether or not you are a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have refused.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
at any time ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the same ground.
The Chairman. State the ground, please, in each case.
Mr. Ullmann. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Striplinq. Did you know Jacob N. Golos ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever give you a camera ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What was the last question ?
Mr. Stripling. I asked if Mr. Golos ever gave him a camera.
The Chairman. How would that incriminate you, the fact that you
were getting a camera ? How would that incriminate you ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Did anybody give you a camera ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you assist Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in pho-
tographing (Tovernment documents in the basement of his home at
5515 Thirtieth Street?
Mr. Ullmann. That point is covered in the statement I prepared.
Mr. Stripling. Will you answer the question ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 765
Mr. Ullmann. I did not assist in taking any pictures of Govennnent
documents.
Mr. Stripling. You did not assist in taking pictures of any Govern-
ment documents ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. In the basement of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster's
home ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Did you exQr furnish any documents to Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Ullmann. Did I ever furnish any documents ?
Mr. Stripling. Any documents to Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever furnish any information to Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster obtained in your official capacity in the Army?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did 3^011 ever furnish any information to Elizabeth
T. Bentley?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
The Chairman. I would like to ask one question. In this statement,
you call Miss Bentley a liar, I believe. How do you know Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. Just by the statements tliat have been made before
this committee.
The Chairman. Is that the person who made the statement before
this committee that you saw a few seconds ago ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. JNIcDowELL. On Avhat ground?
Mv. Ullmann. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. But you do say that Miss Bentley is a liar. How
do you come to that conclusion ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have read the newspapers.
The Chairman. And you saw Miss Bentley's pictures in the news-
paper too, didn't you ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is true ?
Mv. Ullmann. Yes.
The Chairman. All right. If you saw Miss Bentley's pictures in
the newspapers, is that the person whose pictures were in the news-
papers ?
Mr. Ullmann. As far as I can tell from newspaper pictures, that
is the person whose picture was in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Nixon. INIr. Ullmann, in answer to Mr. Stripling's last ques-
tion you said, "No." The question was: Did you ever furnish any
Government documents to Miss Bentley ? You answered "No."
Obviously, that means that you know Miss Bentley. Is that true ?
Mr, Ullmann, No ; I don't follow the reasoning.
766 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Nixon. You gave a categorical answer "No" to his question as
to whether or not you had furnished any Government documents to
Miss Bentley. You said, "No."
Well, in order to give the answer "No" or "Yes" to that question, you
would obviously have to know Miss Bentley. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
(Mr. Ullmann conferred with Mr. Rein.)
Mr. Nixojsr. Did j'ou give any Government documents to Miss
Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I replied.
Mr, Nixon. What is the answer?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
Mr. Nixon. How w^oulcl you know whether or not you have ever
given any Government documents to Miss Bentley unless you knew
her?
Mr. Ullmann. Because I haven't given Government documents to
any unauthorized person.
Mr. Nixon. Your answer to the question is that you haven't given
Government documents to any person; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You know^ you haven't given any Government docu-
ments to Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. The witness answered Mr. Stripling's question:
Did you ever assist Mr. Silvermaster in photographing Government
documents? Your answer was "No." Is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever photograph any Government docu-
ments yourself, not assisting anyone ?
Mr. Ullmann. I did not.
Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, will you rise and stand where the witness
can see you ?
Will you rise, Mr. Ullmann ? You see a lady standing there, don't
you ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You know her by sight right now. You are looking
at her. Did you ever give that lady there any Government documents ?
Mr. Ullmann. I did not.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling, proceed.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ulhnann, did you ever furnish Bela, or other-
wise known as William, Gold a camera?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Was it a Leica, L-e-i-c-a, camera?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. How many cameras did you have while you were
in the Army ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 767
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever loan or permit Nathan Gregory Silver-
master to use one of your cameras for the purpose of photographing
Government documents '?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Steipling. AVhen you obtained a commission in the Army, who
did you give as 3'our references?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie of the White House ?
]\Ir. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. STRiPLiN(i. Do you know Mr. Irving S. Friedman, United
States Treasury Department ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that cjuestion on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
jSIr. Stripling. Do you know JNIr. A. G. Silverman. United States
Army Air Forces Materiel Command, Munitions Building?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mv. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the names that I have mentioned,
according to the Army records, were given by Mr. Ullmanu, as
references.
The Chairman. What was that, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Those individuals were given by him as references
and they recommended him for receiving a commission in the Army.
The Chairman. Did you get that from the official records?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Ullmann, you executed Form 57 on April 4, 1046. On that
form you gave as your references Lauchlin Currie, International De-
velopment Co., 19 Rector Street, New York Cit}'. Is that correct?
iVIr. Ullmann. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. You also gave Miss Henrietta Klotz, 2.85 Madison
Avenue, New York City, assistant to ex-Secretary of the Treasury
Morgenthau. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. You also gave Mr. Harry W. Blair, Tower Build-
ing, Washington, D. C. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall that.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall whom you gave as references in
1946 on a Form 57?
]Mr. Ullmann. I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever set up or place in operation any pho-
tographic equipment in the basement at the premises located at 5515
Thirtieth Street NW., in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be permitted
to read his statement at this point.
The Chairman. All right. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Go ahead, Mr. Witness, and read your statement.
Mr. Ullmann. My name is William Ludwig Ullmann. I was born
in Springfield, Mo., in 1908. I was educated at Philips Exeter Acad-
768 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
emy, at Harvard College, and at Drury College. I received a degree
of bachelor of arts from Drury College in 1930. I received a degree
of master of business administration from Harvard University in
1932.
From 1932 to 1934, I worked in my father's real estate office in
Springfield, Mo., and also organized a wholesale tennis-supply busi-
ness in the same town. In the fall of 1934 I went to work for R. H.
Macy & Co. in New York. I came to Washington in April of 1935 to
work for the NKA. I later worked for the Resettlement Adminis-
tration, and in February 1939 I transferred to the Division ,of Mone-
tary Research in the Treasury Department. I worked there until
1947, with the exception of the period from October 1942 to Septem-
ber 1945, when I was on military leave. I went to officer candidate
school and was commissioned in April 1943. I held the rank of major
when I left the service.
The scurrilous charges made against me by Miss Bentley bef.ore
this committee are false. I state categorically that she is a liar. I
am and always have been a loyal American citizen. I never have be-
trayed any confidence reposed in me by my Government. I am not
and never have been a spy or an agent of a foreign government. I have
never photographed any Government documents.
In view of the fact that the charges against me are under investiga-
tion before a grand jury, and since this committee is ixot, m my opin-
ion, a tribunal before which a citizen may adequately defend himself,
I shall, on advice of counsel, refuse to answer any questions relating
to charges against me under the constitutional right against self-
incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, while you were in the Air Corps did
you have access to any information regarding the B-29 ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, you say the charges Miss Bentley made
are false.
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. One of the charges she made was that you gave her
secret Government documents. You say tliat charge is false; is that
correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Another charge she made was that you photographed
Government documents. Is that charge false?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Another charge she made was that you helped set up
a ])hotographic laboratory in Mr. Silvermaster's home. Is that charge
false?
INIr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, you realize that by giving answers to
the first two questions, which you have categorically stated those
charges are false, and by refusing to answer the third question, you
have left an implication which is pretty clear that you cannot give
the answer "No" to the third question and not incriminate yourself.
You recognize that; do you?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 769
Mr. Ullmanx. No, I don't recognize that.
]Mr. Nixon. You recognize, in other words, that you can waive
the right of self-incrimination by going into the subject at hand.
Mr. Ullmann. By going into what^
Mr. Nixon. By going into the charges that are made. You have
made the categorical statement that all charges are false. I have
been questioning 3^011 about some of those charges. Some of those
charges — you willingly gave the answer "No" to some of the charges
made. On other charges you say, "I refuse to answer on the ground
that the answer I might give might be self-incriminatory." That
obviously casts an implication upon your statement that all these
charges are false. Do you still maintain that all these charges are
false ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do; yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. In other words. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you
helped set up a photogiaphic laboratory in Mr. Silvermaster's base-
ment ; is that true ?
Mr. Ullmann. That statement I refuse to answer on the ground
that it might be self -incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you gave her confi-
dential information; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you helped photo-
graph Government documents?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Her charge is false that you orally gave her informa-
tion on Government business; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You have never talked to Miss Bentley ; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. You never discussed any Government business with
Miss Bentley; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. That is a broad term — any Government business.
Is that your question, sir?
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever discuss your work with Miss Bentley
at all?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. You are with Mr. Silvermaster at the present time in
New Jersey ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You lived with him in Washington previous to that
time ; is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
IMr. Nixon. In the basement of that home in Washington was a
photographic laboratory; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. That is all at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. McDoW'ELL. Did you ever see Miss Bentley at the Silvermaster
home ?
80408 — 48 18
770 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. McDowell. Were you ever in the basement of the house, of
the Silvermaster home, with Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Ullmann, do you have any knowledge of the
technique of photography at all?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. McDoAVELL. Mr. Ullmann, can you play tennis ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
that [Laughter].
Mr. McDowell. That is all, JNIr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
jVIr. ]\IuNDT. In your statement, Mr. Ullmann, j-ou state that you are
now and, I believe, alwa^^s have been — "I am and always have been a
loyal American citizen." Do you believe a man can be a loyal Ameri-
can citizen and a member of the Communist Party at one and the same
time?
]Mr. Ullmann. That is a question I haven't considered, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Ml'ndt. Consider it now and give me an answer.
(The witness conferred with his attorney.)
Mr. NixoN. Let the record show, when the witness consults with
counsel, that he ie consulting with counsel.
Mr. Ullmann. I just don't feel competent to give an answer to the
question.
Mr. JNIiNDT. Even after consulting with your very competent coun-
*sel?
Mr. ITllmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. In other words, as a retired major of the United States
Army, a man who has been entrusted with a lot of high governmental
responsibilities, as a mature citizen and a graduate of two colleges,
you don't consider yourself competent to declare whether or not a man
can be a loyal American citizen and a member of the Communist
Party at one and the same time?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How long did you live in the Silvermaster home while
vou were in Washington?
Mr. Ullmann. Ten years, approximately.
Mr. Mundt. Ten years. During the course of those 10 years, were
you ever in the basement of the Silvermaster home ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Mundt. What was there so mysterious and incriminating about
the basement of the Silvermaster home that you dare not admit that
in the course of 10 years you ever once entered the basement?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. Tliat is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chaii;man. Mr. Hebert.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 771
Mr. Hebekt. Mr. Ullniann, in your prepared statement, which you
read, you say :
In view of the fact that the charges against me are under investigation before
a grand jury —
by that you don't mean to imply that you ha\e been given a no true
bill by the New York grand jury before whom you a})peared?
Mr. Ullmann. No true bill '.
Mr. Hebekt. I mer*?it by that statement you do not mean to imply
that you have been investigated and absolved of any wrongdoing?
Mr. Ullmanx. I don't mean to imply that ; no sir.
Mr. Hebekt. Because, as a matter of fact, the New York grand
jury is only in recess, as I understand it, and at any time can return a
true bill against you for violation of the Federal espionage laws.
Is that correct ?
^Ir. Ullmann. I gather it is; yes, sir. The statement says "are
under investigation."
]\Ir. Hebekt. It is an open cas'e right now ; it is not a closed case.
That is what I am trying to get at.
Mr. Uli,maxx. As far as I know, it is still an open case.
Mr. Hebekt. It is still an open case ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
]\Ir. Hebekt. And the mere fact that you have appeared before them
does not indicate that up to this time they have cleared you or given
3'ou a clean bill of health ?
]\ir. Ullmann, That is my impression.
Mr. Hebekt. As a matter of fact, it is true ?
Mr, Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebekt. Wh}' is it that you will answer some questions and
refuse to answer others, standing on your constitutional right of self-
incrimination %
Mr, Ullmann. Well, I refuse to answer that question on the ground
of self-incrimination.
Mr. Hebekt. You refuse to answer it on the ground of self-incrim-
ination i'
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir,
Mr. Hebekt. I ask you, as a man who has given his educational
background, as a former Army officer, a major in the Army — and I
think you are perfectly competent to answer this question, because it
is an opinion, and I ask your opinion — do you think that any individual
can belong to a group or an organization dedicated to overthrow the
American Government by force and violence and at the same time be
a loyal American citizen \
Mr. Ullmann. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Hebekt. You do not?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Hebekt. Therefore, if the Communist Party is an organization
dedicated to the overthrow of the American Government by force and
violence, you could not be a member of that party and be a loyal
American at the same time?
JMr. Ullmann. That is correct,
Mr. Hebekt. You have said in your statement that you always have
been a loyal American.
772 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Ullmann. I have.
Mr. Hebert. Then, have you ever been a member of the Commvmist
Party?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Suppose you justify that answer in your own words.
I have put the basis for the question. You have answered it. Now,
you answer me. You say you are a loyal American citizen. There-
fore, if you are a loyal American citizen, and I presume you are a sane
and rational man— therefore, if you are a loyal American citizen, you
could not have been a member of the Communist Party at the same
time. Now, were you a member of the Communist Party i
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Are you a loyal American citizen?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes; I am.
Mr. Hebert. Why don't you stand o]i your constitutional rights
there and say that might be self -incriminating?
Mr. Ullmann. Is that an official question?
Mr. Hebert. Why, certainly it is an official question. I am trying
to probe your mental thoughts at this time, if possible.
Mr. I^llmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Hebert. You refuse to say why you defend your American cit-
izenship on the ground that it might incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You realize, Mr. Ullmann, that you are absolutely
within your rights to stand upon that answer?
]Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. As you have done. You realize also that you are sub-
ject to the laws of perjury if you lie at this time ?
Mr, Ullm\nn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. For the purpose of establishing the veracity of the
witness, Mr. Chairman, I again ask Miss Bentley to rise.
Miss Bentley.
(Miss Bentley rises.)
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Ullmann, I again ask you to rise.
(Mr. Ullmann rises.)
Mr. Hebert. This lady standing there — have you ever known her,
talked to her, had any conversation with her, discussed any matters
with her relating to your Government employment, discussed any
matters of the Soviet Union and its relationship to America ; have you
had any relationship with her under the name of Elizabeth T. Bent-
ley, under the name of Helen Grant, under the name of Helen John-
son, or under the simple name of Helen?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Now, remain standing. Miss Bentley, please.
I want to establish this :
Have you ever given to that lady, in regard to whom you just re-
fused to answer the previous question on grounds of possible self-in-
crimination— have you ever handed into that lady's hands any pack-
ages, any documents of an official nature of the Government for trans-
mittal to other people?
Mr. Ullmann. I have not.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 773
Mr. HUBERT. You have not.
Have you ever paid to that lady standing there any dues of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Hebert. The record speaks for itself, Mr. Chairman. That is
all.
The Chairman. I would like to ask a couple of questions.
Mr. Ullmann, you were interrogated by agents of the FBI, were you
not ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell the FBI that you had been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
]\Ir. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Well, we really don't have to have the answer to
that question because the record may speak for itself. But didn't you
tell the FBI that you had been a member of the Communist JParty?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question, ]\Ir. Chairman.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell the FBI agents that you did have
photographic equipment ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Supposing I said that the FBI had told me that
you had photographic equipment. What would you say to that ?
Just a moment, Mr. Counsel. Let the witness answer. Go ahead,
Mr. Witness.
Mr. Ullmann. There is nothing to say to that. If they told you,
they told you.
The Chairman. Would you say they told me the truth or not the
truth ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Did the FBI ask you whether or not you had been
in the basement of the Silvermaster house ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. In your statement you claim you are a very loyal
American. In fact, you use the words "loyal American citizen." Don't
you think that a loyal American citizen would be very willing to an-
swer the question: Are you a member of the Connnunist Party?
Let's look at it aside from the legal standpoint ; let's look at it from
the common-sense standpoint. You were a major in the Army and
fought for your country and here you are being asked whether or not
you are a member of the Communist Party. Don't 3^ou think as a
loyal American citizen that it is your duty to answer that question ?
Mr. Ullmann. Mr. Chairman, my statement has given the grounds
on which I am standing on my constitutional rights on these questions.
The Chairman. I just do not see how the question — I might see
how the question of constitutional right bears on this question of com-
munism, but on the question of whether or not you possessed a camera,
or whether or not you were in the basement of Mr. Silvermaster's home,
I just do not see how you can bring in that constitutional question
there, because I don't see how it would incriminate you.
774 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In what way would it incriminate you ?
Siipposins we ask you : Have you ever been in tlie basement of this
building:? Would that incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. It might, sir.
The Chairmaist. Suppose we asked you : Have you ever been in the
basement of your own home? "Would that incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. It might.
The Chairman. It might. That is just the reason why you won't
answer the question in regard to the Silvermaster home because you
know what was done in the basement of that house. There was photo-
graphic equipment down there, and you know it better than anyone
else in this room, and that is why you don't answer the question.
Mr. McDowell. How long have you lived with Mr. Silvennaster in
New Jersey ?
Mr. Ullmann. Since May of 1947.
Mr. McDowell. That is a little over a year,
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Are you two fellows maintaining any photographic
equipment in the basement there, too?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a Reserve commission as a major in
the Army?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. You still have it?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. But you won't answer as to whether or not you are
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, as a loyal American citizen, j^ou, of
course, believe H is essential that we do everything we can to protect
the security of the country from espionage activities, do you not ?
Mr. Ullimann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You, of course, have read in the newspapers the charges
Miss Bentle}^ made, have you not ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir,
Mr. Nixon. If those charges are true in regard to espionage activi-
ties, they would constitute a considerable clanger to the country, would
they not? If they are true. You said they are false, I unclerstand.
But I am asking you that, assuming what she said was true, it would
constitute a danger to this country, would it not?
Mr. Ullmann, Yes, sir,
Mr. Nixon. So, a conunittee of Congress, the courts, all the agencies
that have to do with the protection and securitj^ of this country, should
do everything they coulcl to establish whether or not those charges are
true or false. You understand that, can j-ou not?
Mr. Ullman. The courts; yes.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you believe we should attempt to estab-
lish— that it should be estr.blished whether those charges are true or
false by some agency of the Government?
Mr. Ullmann. By some agency.
Mr. Nixon. Now, having in mind the fact then that it is necessary
for the security of the country that the truth of those charges, all of
them, be established, or the falsity of those charges, I point to your
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 775
istatement in which 3^011 have stated, in attempting to help this com-
mittee in findincr the truth or falsity of those charges, you state cate-
gorically : "The charges made by Miss Bentley are false."
Xo^y, so that we can have the record clear, will you please take up
each indiA'idual charge that you are referring to when you say that
the charges made by Miss Bentley are false. Which charges did she
make that are false?
Mr. Ullmaxn. That is in my statement.
Mr. Nixon. No; in your statement you say: "The charges made by
Miss Bentley are false."
Mr. Ullmann". The charges made against me are false.
Mr. Nixox. The statements made by INIiss Bentley against you per-
sonally are false?
Mr. Ullmanx. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. You mean all the charges made by Miss Bentley against
3'ou are false ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Including the charge that you are a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmaxx. I had not recognized that as a charge.
Mr. Nixox. I see. Then you do not say that the charge made by
Miss Bentle3' that you were a member of the Communist Party is
false?
Mr. Ullmax^n. I don't say that in this statement.
Mr. NixoN. You don't mean to say that in this statement. All right.
You have said that as far as this statement is concerned — I think it is
essential then that you should point out to the committee what charges
made by Miss Bentley you say are false.
Mr. Ullmaxx. That is written into the statement.
Mr. Nixon. The statement speaks for itself. You just say in the
statement that all the charges are false.
Mr. Ullmax'X^ I say that I never betrayed any confidence reposed in
me by my Government, that I am not and never have been a spy or
an agent of a foreign government, I have never photographed any
Government documents.
Mr. Nixox. Then the only charges made by Miss Bentley that you
by this statement are saying are false are those that you have photo-
graphed Government documents and that you have been a spy and that
you have been disloyal. Those are the charges that you say "are false?
Mr. Ullmann. I say those are false; yes, sir.
Mr. NixoN. By the same token, you are not saying in this state-
ment that the other "charges made by Miss Bentley are false; is that
correct ?
Mr. Ullmax^n. I am not sure I have heard the other charges.
Mr. Nixox. You have already indicated that you did not mean by
this statement that Miss Bentley's charge that you were a member of
the Communist Party was false. The record will speak for itself on
that one.
Now. one of the other charges made by Miss Bentlev was that you
lielped to set up some photographic equipment in the Silvermaster
home. Do you mean by your statement that that charge is false?
Mr. Ullmann. Will you repeat that statement — that I helped to set
up photographic equipment ?
776 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. I want you to understand the question exactly, Mr.
Ullmann, because it is very important to you, as well as to the
committee.
You stated in your statement that all these charges were false that
Miss Bentley made about you. Now, we have gone into some of the
charges and you have indicated what you thought about some of them.
Now, one of the charges made, and one of the serious charges made,
by Miss Bentley that was carried in the newspapers — and I am sure that
if you read the newspapers, you read this one — was that you helped
to set up photographic equipment in the basement of the Silvermaster
home in Washington.
Do you mean by this statement that that charge is false?
Mr. Ullmann. 1 have not recognized that as a charge.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, by your statement you are not indicating
that that charge is false ?
Mr, Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. I am interested. Mr. Ullmann, you did not consider
the statement by Miss Bentley that you are a member of the Com-
munist Party as a charge. You didn't consider that a charge.
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Why don't you consider that a charge? Don't you
feel it is a charge against a man's loyalty to be labeled as a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Ullmann. I had not recognized that membership in the Com-
munist Party has as yet been considered an unlawful act.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you realize that under the decision of the judiciary
in the State of New York that it is considered libelous per se to charge
a man as being a Communist unless it can be substantiated?
Mr. Ullmann. I didn't know of that decision.
Mr. IMuNDT. That is a decision. Knowing that decision, then, do you
not consider it a charge to be labeled as a Communist ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, if that is the decision
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr, MuNDT. I am sure his counsel is familiar with the decision and
I hope he advises him properly.
(Witness again confers with counsel.)
The Chairman. The Chair would like to say to those in the cham-
bers that this is a congressional committee sitting on a very important
matter, that those of you in the audience are the guests of the com-
mittee, and the committee would appreciate just as little applause as
possible. In fact, if you can get along without any applause at all for
one side or the other, we would api^reciate it because we have got a long
way to go and can't possibly finish these hearings this week, and we
just have to rush things along as best we can. We must have order.
Proceed.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you ready to answer the question ?
Mr. Ullmann. That decision of the court I gather still does not make
it a criminal offense to be a member of the Communist Party, and in
this statement I am referring to cliarges as criminal offenses.
]\Ir. INIuNDT. It does make it libelous, per se, to call a man a Com-
munist, if he is not a Communist. INIiss Bentley called you a Com-
munist. That is a charge according to legal interpretation.
Now, do you intend to include that charge in your statement as false?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 777
Mr. Ullmanx. I state here that I am including in my statement
charges of criminal activities.
JVIr. MuNDT. Yon would not consider membership in the Communist
Party in that category ^ .
JNIr. Ullmanx. Would not consider it what?
INIr. INIuNDT. The charge of communism in that category.
Mr. Ullmann. That is right.
]\f r. MuNDT. As a Reserve officer you must know and associate with
several other officers in the Army, is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Not recently.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. Have you any friends who are Reserve officers ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have some; yes, sir.
Mr. jMundt. Among your circle of friends who are Reserve officers,
is it considered unwise to state that they are not members of the
Communist Party ?
]Mr. Ullmann."^ Well
Mr. JMundt. Is that the general attitude of your friends who are
generally Reserve officers?
JNIr. Ullmann. Unwise ? Will you repeat that ? I am sorry.
]\Ir. JMundt. Yes. In your particular group of associates who are
members of the Reserve, do they consider it unwise to declare that
tliey are not members of the Communist Party when asked?
JMr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. JMundt. You are rather an exception to that rule, then, is that
right?
Mr. Ullmann. I guess I am an exception to that rule.
Mr. MuNDT, How do you explain it ?
Mr. Ullmann. In these particular circumstances
Mr. MuNDT. How do you explain that you are an exception to that
rule ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, as far as I know
JMr. JMundt. What is there in your background that makes you such
an exception to that rule ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, as far as I know, it happens to be circum-
stances at present.
Mr. JMundt. What circumstances?
JMr. Ullmann. These circumstances.
Mr. Mundt. The circumstances would be much less incriminatory
if you could testify under oath whether or not you were not now and
had never been a member of the Communist Party. You realize that,
do you not ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is your interiDi-etation, I gather.
Mr. Mundt. That is my question. What is your answer?
Mr. Ullmann. No ; I cannot see it
Mr. JMundt. Do you still seem to think that there is something about
membership in the Communist Party which is credible and desirable
and commendable ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do not recall stating anything to that effect.
Mr. Mundt. Well, the implication is to that effect.
Mr. UrxMANN. That is the implication.
Mr. JMundt. Very well. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman, Are there any other members who have any ques-
tions ?
Mr. Stripling.
778 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. No questions.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullniann, you indicated a moment ago that member-
ship in the Communist Party was not a crime, which is correct, in-
cidentally, and that thei-efore j^ou did not consider that to be a charge.
Then, obviously, the question and the answer to the question : "Are
you a member of the Communist Party?" could not incriminate you,
could it?
You, yourself, say it is not a crime to be a member of the party.
This committee agrees. Now, I ask you again : Are you a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on 
Live Music Archive
Librivox Free Audio
Metropolitan Museum
Cleveland Museum of Art
Internet Arcade
Console Living Room
Books to Borrow
Open Library
TV News
Understanding 9/11